Incorporeal creatures and touch attacks

[MerakSpielman]

Or, potentally, they could have a familiar... Isn't there a way to deliver touch spells through your familiar?

 

[KarinsDad]

Hmmm... What if they cast Spectral Hand?

They should be able to do this. The manifesting description does not state that it applies to both touch spells and ranged touch spells and it does state that other spells work normally.

Because of this, I think that Ray spells and other ranged touch spells would work ok.

Also, this is another case where a bit of a contradiction appears to occur. The hand of Spectral Hand is incorporeal and still delivers touch attacks (a different DM could use this spell to support a ruling that incorporeal creatures can do touch spells). However, I consider this to be an exception written within the spell (which spells often do) in order to make it difficult for opponents to disrupt the spell as opposed to the general rule.

I think the intent was that incorporeal creatures could not actually touch their opponents and hence could not deliver spells with a range of touch, but other "ranged touch" spells are normal spells for them. IMO. The rules are not crystal clear.

 

[the Jester]

An incorporeal creature cannot use Power Attack to boost its incorporeal touch attack damage. It could use Power Attack (in the case of a non-manifesting Ghost on the ethereal plane) to increase its melee touch damage on the Ethereal plane.

But with the exception of ghosts, incorporeal creatures aren't ethereal, and even on the ethereal plane ghosts still don't have a strength score. I'm not sure I understand why you draw the distinction?

Anyone have an answer about the ghostly belt of giant strength?

 

[KarinsDad]

But with the exception of ghosts, incorporeal creatures aren't ethereal, and even on the ethereal plane ghosts still don't have a strength score. I'm not sure I understand why you draw the distinction?

Because there is a distinction.

3.5 MM Page 117

Sample Ghost Str 16

"A ghost retains all of the attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect creatures that are not ethereal."

Ghosts are "physical" on the ethereal plane and can be affected like any other ethereal creature there (even when they are manifesting, they still exist on the ethereal plane and can be attacked there). Ghosts are only incorporeal on the material plane.

 

[the Jester]

Because there is a distinction.

3.5 MM Page 117

Sample Ghost Str 16

"A ghost retains all of the attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect creatures that are not ethereal."

Ghosts are "physical" on the ethereal plane and can be affected like any other ethereal creature there (even when they are manifesting, they still exist on the ethereal plane and can be attacked there). Ghosts are only incorporeal on the material plane.

[looks at MM]

Aha! They even retain their strength scores on the ether!

Gotcha, thanks for pointing that out.

 

[KarinsDad]

Anyone have an answer about the ghostly belt of giant strength?

If the belt was a "valued" item (3.5 MM page 118), then the ghost would benefit from its abilities.

The ghost could still not use the bonus strength from that belt unless it also had a "ghost weapon" (page 118) with which to apply a physical attack to a material plane creature (in which case, it could use Power Attack as well, but only with a ghost weapon).

 

[Hypersmurf]

They should be able to do this. The manifesting description does not state that it applies to both touch spells and ranged touch spells and it does state that other spells work normally.

Because of this, I think that Ray spells and other ranged touch spells would work ok.

Spectral Hand isn't a ranged touch spell, though. It specifies a melee touch attack, and it delivers a touch spell... which is specifically what is prohibited by the Manifestation description.

A manifested ghost can use Rays or Ranged Touch spells, but Shocking Grasp - even cast through a Spectral Hand - is "a spell that relies on touch", so by the wording of Manifestation, he can't use it.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Spectral Hand isn't a ranged touch spell, though. It specifies a melee touch attack, and it delivers a touch spell... which is specifically what is prohibited by the Manifestation description.

A manifested ghost can use Rays or Ranged Touch spells, but Shocking Grasp - even cast through a Spectral Hand - is "a spell that relies on touch", so by the wording of Manifestation, he can't use it.

-Hyp.

I can understand this interpretation and I agree that it is probably the correct literal interpretation, but probably not within the intent of why Ghost melee touch spells do not touch.

"When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost's touch spells don't work on nonethereal targets."

Spectral Hand is not a touch spell. It is a ranged spell with medium range. It should work normally. Granted, it does "rely on touch", but I think the issue here is that incorporeal ghosts cannot touch, not that a spell cannot give them this ability at range. The Ghost is not doing the touching, the spell is using the melee touch mechanic to handle turning melee touch spells into ranged touch spells. IMO. Obviously, YMMV. Your ruling is the literal one and quite fine.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Wouldn't the created spectral hand be in the ethereal plane?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Wouldn't the created spectral hand be in the ethereal plane?

While the ghost is manifested, he has a presence (an incorporeal one, but nonetheless) on the Material Plane.

-Hyp.