Increasing ongoing damage with each failed save.

[Stalker0]

In another thread talking about resistances, the idea came up about increasing ongoing damage (with save ends) every time the person fails there save.

I like the idea for two reasons:

1) It makes ongoing damage more useful. Ongoing damage isn't bad right now, but since a lot of monsters get save bonuses they don't tend to last long. This would at least give them the chance to do bigger damage. From a pc side, it makes the damage more deadly.

2) Its realistic. If your bleeding, it tends to get worse. If your on fire, it tends to get worse.

So I think its a good idea overall, the question becomes
1) How much should it increase
2) When should the rule apply. Is it an idea that could be applied to any ongoing damage with save ends, or only for certain attacks?

 

[Mesh Hong]

First off I would like to say that I think this isn't a good idea. (gut reaction - like always I am prepared to change my mind)

I would also like to voice my objection to the blanket concept that "If you are bleeding, it tends to get worse", I really don't think this is the case. If you are bleeding sufficiently then the resulting loss of blood might lead to secondary effects such as dizziness, passing out, cold sweats and gasping for air (or air hunger) - not an increase in bleeding.

Now that I have got that off my chest I will put it behind me and try to be more constructive.

If you are going to use a system of increasing danger from ongoing damage then I would strongly suggest using it sparingly, mainly for important thematic situations.

Dragons Breath could be one of these, and might work quite well, Necrotic or Radiant damage might also fit nicely with this systems approach. In any case, personally I think any power this damage is attached to should be considered and designed very carefully.

The main problem I can see is how does it work between tiers?

At epic level an attack that deals 15 ongoing damage +5 per failed save seems quite reasonable if it is one of the creatures signiature themes.

A similar attack at Heroic level doing 5 ongoing damage +5 per failed save seems substantially more dangerous, perhaps unreasonably so.

There are other approaches I might consider before the using the above system:

1: keeping the ongoing damage the same and increasing the number of saves required to negate it.
eg. target takes 10 ongoing fire damage (2 saves ends)

2: keeping the ongoing damage the same but having the attack (or another effect) reduce any resistance the target may or may not have.
eg. 10 ongoing fire damage (save ends), also give the creature an aura (2) enemies inside aura have any fire resistance reduced by 5. (this would allow me to have ongoing fire damage be more dangerous and effective near the creature, but allow a PC to back off to manage the danger.

Both of the above two examples would allow me to control or predict the scale of damage the PC will take, and doesn't allow it to quickly spiral out of control.

 

[Nebulous]

I like the idea, but would only use it in special situations for certain monsters. Like a fire elemental whose ongoing flame damage increases by 1d6 damage each round. That's scary and a fun mechanic, but i don't think i would want to implement it all the time. Ongoing damage can be pretty deadly already unless you got a group optimized to resist it (which is entirely possible too). With that said, if i found the PCs were blocking damage too often or easily i would use something to make it more dangerous.

 

[eamon]

I think the house rule is asking for abuse by save-penalty inducers. It increases the impact of unlikely events, which isn't a good thing either, I think.

Edit: I think that in general save-ends powers aren't strong or last long enough to represent a nasty long-duration effect. There's also just a lot of ways to end save-ends effects or mitigate their consequences. And of course, elite's and solos make a mockery of most save-ends effects.

perhaps some of these ongoing-damage effects should have something along the lines of "you can't save against this effect next round".

 

[ravenheart]

Don't penalize players for failing a save. Reward them for making it.

But to make things more interesting, add a second save requirement as Mesh Hong suggested. This actually seems more like an after-effect. Which brings me to another idea:

1. You take ongoing damage at the END of your turn (instead of at the start), but you take it BEFORE you make saving throws. Note that this applies to monsters as well, so no more insta-killing minions as their turn comes up (if there ever was such a thing).

2 . The first time you save against ongoing damage, you gain half the amount of ongoing damage as an after-effect. Thus, you must still suffer through another round of ongoing damage (unless countered by other means).

These two work quite nicely together, don't you think?

 

[keterys]

I actually suggested the ongoing at end of turn thing ages ago. I still think it's how the game should have worked. It lets people do things like go 'Ack, I'm on fire. No one helped me. Umm, I look for water to jump into' or other ways to trigger saves.

The increasing ongoing would need to be balanced against things, as always, but I suspect that from a PC perspective it would mostly increase excitement and perceived danger without necessarily doing a ton more damage. After all, as soon as someone starts to fail, then people will start using abilities that grant saves, Heal checks, etc. I don't know that it needs to apply to all ongoing damage, but there are whole classes of creature where it would likely be appropriate.

Vital Rules Note: 'Failed Save' only triggers on end of turn saves, so extra saves from friends, warden, etc would not increase the amount.

 

[FireLance]

(Also posted in original thread.)

I think basic ongoing damage is nasty enough. If the real concern is the way resistances tend to negate ongoing damage, then have ongoing damage reduce the target's resistance by the amount of ongoing damage on each failed save until the character takes a short rest (or if you're feeling generous, resistance can also be restored when the character uses his second wind).

For example: A character with Resist 10 fire takes 5 ongoing fire damage. On his first failed save, his fire resistance is reduced to 5 until the end of the encounter. If he fails a second save, his fire resistance is negated and no longer protects him for the rest of the encounter.

The same approach can be applied to auras that deal damage: A character who ends his turn in the aura must make a saving throw, and if the saving throw is failed, his resistance is reduced by the amount of damage dealt by the aura.