Inexperienced DM vs. MIN/MAX druid

[Pielorinho]

MOTW has some interesting and relevant advice:

They suggest allowing that stats be rolled -- but that the DM should do the rolling. I think they also suggest that a high animal handling score may allow a PC to pick out the best animal in a group, but I don't remember exactly ohw that works. At any rate, the druid's player shouldn't get to see the animal's stats until the druid has spent several weeks or months around the animal -- until that point, the druid doesn' t know the animal well enough to know what its stats are. Of course, that means more work for you as a DM; unless you want the extra burden, you may be better off just fiating that only standard-stat critters are available.

They suggest that advancing a creature's HD can be done through a daylong ritual that costs 200 XP. This is an interesting idea, but I don't like it very well: I think the ritual's XP cost should scale, in the same way the XP cost for leveling up a PC should scale. I'll suggest to my DM that the cost be 25 XP times the creature's current HD. To advance a 1HD creature to 2HD would cost 25 XP; to advance an 8HD creature to 9HD would cost 150 XP; and so on. That makes it less arduous on low-level druids, and more arduous on mid- to high-level druids.

As for speak with animals decreasing the time it takes to train an animal, this seems to me like a no-brainer. Once an animal likes you and considers you her leader, one of the biggest hurdles you face as a trainer is conveying to the animal what you want her to do. Speak with animals is invaluable in this respect.

Ultimately, consider the advice in MOTW: the companion animal is a core class feature of the druid and the ranger. You should make utilizing this class feature no more difficult for the ranger than you make using martial weapons be for a fighter.

I don't see most of this player's requests as wheedling: it sounds like he's looking at his abilities and trying to figure out how they work and how he can get them to work for him. The additional weapons request is a little wheedlific, but the rolling for stats, advancing creatures, and training them through speaking with them are pretty obvious questions to ask.

Daniel

 

[Mark]

I don't see most of this player's requests as wheedling: it sounds like he's looking at his abilities and trying to figure out how they work and how he can get them to work for him. The additional weapons request is a little wheedlific, but the rolling for stats, advancing creatures, and training them through speaking with them are pretty obvious questions to ask.

Perhaps the term "wheedling" was a bit harsh. I took his initial post to describe an ongoing request process that went beyond the scope of the questions asked. I will be stealing the term, "wheedlific" and using it in the future.

(I'm also following the "Poor Daniel" thread which I'll try to add something to this weekend.)

 

[Pielorinho]

Perhaps the term "wheedling" was a bit harsh. I took his initial post to describe an ongoing request process that went beyond the scope of the questions asked. I will be stealing the term, "wheedlific" and using it in the future.

(I'm also following the "Poor Daniel" thread which I'll try to add something to this weekend.)

Thanks -- the responses are interesting in that thread, and hopefully it'll help me understand both how to run adventures better and how, if I ever try to publish something, I'd best go about capturing my DM style.

Wheedlific does roll off the tongue. But I may be a bit defensive of Grandpa's player b/c when I started my druid character, I asked my DM many of these same questions. As well as questions like, "can I pull spells from Relics and Rituals?", "do goodberry berries have to start off as edible by humans, or can off-season berries like juniper berries work?", "Does nature sense work on dead, or even undead, animals?" and "Can I wildshape into any Monster Manual critter, or only ones that I've encountered?"

Fighters it's easy to figure out the rules for. Druids, especially pre-MOTW druids, had a lot of vague areas in their description.

Daniel

 

[-Eä-]

On rolling stats

Too late for really joining the discussion, but anyhow:

Rolling stats for animals should not be a great issue. In my opnion they should be rolled for, but not in the normal fashion.

Using the normal distribution (referred to as the Gauss-function) one should be able to roll stats in a perfectly balanced way, and to m e, this is the best way to do it. I always use such to dtermine ability scores of large populations for instance, and the variation is not as great as it is when rolling normally. What you do is to use the inverse cumulative distribution plotting these values:

Expected value: 10,5
Standard deviance: 2
And you roll dice appropriate to the population, for example 1d1000 and and divide the result by 1000...

This is the function you use: Plot in the number you get, and the ability scores are given.

x=(21/2)+2*SQRT(2)*InverseErf[0,-1+2y]

Where Erf is
Integral[(2/SQRT(PI))*e^(-x^2),{variable: x, lower limit: -infinity, upper limit: x}]

 

[Tzarevitch]

I am starting a home brew campaign world (nerve-wracking!) and some of the players have been working on their characters for it. One player in particular loves to squeeze every little advantage out of play that he can. I have no problem with this mentality. It makes for fun metagaming, and extends the life of the game for him.

My concern is my own inexperience. Every day he asks if I could make slight (seemingly reasonable) adjustments to the rules, but each one is another step in his favor in play. I typically want to provide so he can make the character he would like (he really does have fun characters), but I am afraid the game will become imbalanced in his favor. I also fear it could make the other players feel like he is "pampered by the DM" (when he is actually the only one with some initiative).

Am I being too paranoid? Too inexperienced with the rules? He plays a druid. Here is his current request list:

- can his animal companion stats be rolled (so he can eventually get a really rocking animal companion from good rolls)?
- can his animal companion raise levels? (I'd like to implement this just to offset the first request, so I can "simulate" a bond of friendship between him and his animal.)
- can he make armor other than hide out of critter skins (like plate mail from monster x) (he could use the AC, but is there a reason other than flavor for this restriction)?
- can he have weapons outside of his druid weapon restrictions (he reasons that the current restrictions are just flavor, and I worry that some are meant to keep damage low)?

So tell me... would this throw him off-balance? Were the restrictions there for a good reason? Hopefully Masters of the Wild will be a help.

Thanks ahead.

You've already heard many of the same answers that I'd give.
#1 - Absolutely not. (I leaned this one from experience.)
#2 - No (Also from experience)
#3 - In Dark Sun: yes. Anywhere else: no. Animal skins = Hide Armor or Leather Armor except in unusual circumstances.
#4 - No. Multiclass or take an Exotic Weapon Prof. Feat.

Here's some advice on how to deal with proposals like that in the future.

First: Tell the player, "I'll think it over." Practice saying it. The phrase is useful and can be a game-saver unless it is a very basic change that the player wants and you are SURE that you don't envision problems. As a rule, try not to go with player proposals before you have had a chance to think things over. Do not let anyone spring things on you at the last minute. Remember, poorly thought out changes can wreck a game. It has happened to me before.

Second: REALLY think it over. Hold answering until the next game session. I DM every other week, so I hold answers over until the next play session unless it is important to that day's game to answer immediately (it rarely is). I then use that time to look the proposal over and try to determine how it can be abused and try to determine what problems it could cause for me in the future.

Third: Look at it from the other side. Why shouldn't you allow this change? Is there someone in whose interest it would be not to allow this change (real world players, game NPCs etc.)

Finally: Solicit opinsions from other parties. Ask the other players what they think. They might be able to spot problems that you didn't. Make sure you find out WHY they agree or disagree with the change. The players in your own game are the ones (along with you the DM) who stand to gain or loose the most from any DM change. If necessary, let them tell you their opinions privately. Also, ask gamers who are not in the campaign. Ask here on the message boards or on Usenet. Ask The Sage. Try and find someone who could point out the bad side of the player's proposal so you can get a balanced view of what you are dealing with.

In summation. Whatever you do, when your players do this to you don't make a hasty decision that you'll regret later. Don't be afraid to tell them that you can't answer right now if you aren't sure that the player's proposal is a good idea.

Good Luck!

Tzarevitch

 

[Henry]

- can his animal companion stats be rolled (so he can eventually get a really rocking animal companion from good rolls)?
- can his animal companion raise levels? (I'd like to implement this just to offset the first request, so I can "simulate" a bond of friendship between him and his animal.)
- can he make armor other than hide out of critter skins (like plate mail from monster x) (he could use the AC, but is there a reason other than flavor for this restriction)?
- can he have weapons outside of his druid weapon restrictions (he reasons that the current restrictions are just flavor, and I worry that some are meant to keep damage low)?

Hi, Grandpa! (that sounds weird...) I'm blind-posting, so if some of these answers are repeating, please bear with me, and just consider it the weight of experience...

First of all, most of these are not extrememly unbalancing. But if you want to keep a tight lid on it, here's my opinions...

1. rolled animal companion stats: I would say no, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow him a +2 in one stat if he's taking extra time to search for an animal with extra strength, dexterity, fortitude, perhaps acts smarter than the rest, etc. To allow multiple re-rolls violates the spirit of animal friendship (What's he going to do, befriend an endless stream of animals and then *dump* them - "Go away, you're too puny, you mongrel!" You could let him roll the animal stats, but only on the condition that he cannot "unbefriend" the animal until at least 6 months had passed - you have to take the good with the bad.
2. Animal companions raising levels - Look at the druid spell Awaken. There's a reason it's 5th level. I wouldn't do it unless he specifically paid or performed a favor to a higher druid to have it done to his animal. Otherwise, someone has just cast Awaken on your companion for free - and as we know, T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F. Lunch. This would be the ONLY one that could be extrememely unbalancing, in my opinion. It's like getting a cohort without the leadership feat, and below 6th level.
3. I would say no, unless the rules specifically allowed it. Hide is hide, whether it is from a bear or a dragon. All he's trying to do here is get a better Armor class for free. There are always amulets, bracers, rings, spells, etc. that will do the same thing. If he is really interested in this point, however, there probably wouldn't be any harm in allowing it.
4. I would allow him weapons outside druid restrictions, but only if damage and crit ranges for said weapons fell inside the ranges for the already allowable druid weapons. When my Players of monks wanted monk weapons outside of those listed in the PHB, I allowed them any thing they wanted - as long as it did 1d6 dmg, had a 20/x2 crit range, and did one type of damage (bludgeon, slash, or pierce).
   [/list=1]
   
   In truth, the only way to gain knowledge of what breaks games and what doesn't is experience. If you do have a change that makes one character unduly powered over the others, talk with that player about it, and try to come to a reasonable compromise.
   
   Good luck, and I hope this helped in some way.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Interesting how many of these issues have been resolved by 3.5e!

1) can his animal stats be rolled? OK, not resolved I allow animal companion stats to be created using the standard array + species modifiers though, to allow them to be somewhat special.

2) There are now rules for animal companions to increase in HD and abilities as the druid rises in level

3) There is now dragon hide armour on the special armour lists which druids can wear for better AC.

4) Yes, he can use any weapon he wants, the listed weapons are now merely the proficiencies which he starts with. He can use other weapons at -4 or spend a feat for the proficiency.

Interesting, no?

 

[Xeriar]

Am I being too paranoid? Too inexperienced with the rules? He plays a druid. Here is his current request list:

- can his animal companion stats be rolled (so he can eventually get a really rocking animal companion from good rolls)?

I roll as part of a house rule. I do, however, make sure they will not outshine the players in this regard (they might at low levels though).

- can his animal companion raise levels? (I'd like to implement this just to offset the first request, so I can "simulate" a bond of friendship between him and his animal.)

Gaining advancement HD is just fine - in fact better - than ditching companions, for both roleplaying purposes and it is in fact less powerful than getting a new critter. It helps keep more of an attachment. (edit: I am assuming the player means advancement HD and not real levels of any sort. IF he means real levels, slap him)

- can he make armor other than hide out of critter skins (like plate mail from monster x) (he could use the AC, but is there a reason other than flavor for this restriction)?

Most cultures have developped forms of leather armor for their prized critters, including dogs, etc. (well, padded really, but this is D&D). I would allow leather, but not hide or plate (too restrictive. Plate and plate barding were possible because of a very detailed understanding of human and horse anatomy, as well as some amazing mettallurgy skills.

- can he have weapons outside of his druid weapon restrictions (he reasons that the current restrictions are just flavor, and I worry that some are meant to keep damage low)?

The scimitar is balanced with every other martial weapon and even one of the better ones. I've heard some claim that druids historically were allowed no weapons, save a staff. Not sure how accurate this is.

I generally allow players to replace scimitar with one martial weapon of their choice (WHY is Ehlohnna's favored weapon the longsword if she's a goddess of druids!?)

So tell me... would this throw him off-balance? Were the restrictions there for a good reason? Hopefully Masters of the Wild will be a help.

The most important rule about being flexible as a GM is that you do not give all the goodies to one class or person.

If allow rolling for animal companions, roll familiar and warhorse stats too, for example.

However, being flexible does require a good understanding of how the game gets balanced. A good GM will have this understanding, which is both an understanding of the rules and an intent to make sure everyone is having fun.

If the player decides to glory hog with his twinked animal companion, take it away from him. He developes an allergic reaction to his armor and collapses, or something. It's one thing to get that extra inch, but to rub it in and take the mile... well.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

"What Plane Sailing said" -- use the 3.5 rules for 2, 3, and 4, and you're fine (note that for #2, gaining HD as the animal advances does not mean class levels, nor does the animal increase in size).

As for #1, how are you determining the stats for the characters in the campaign, and what stats are you using for monsters? If your monsters are all straight out of the MM, then absolutely not -- the animal's stats are fine. If you've toughened all your monsters, I'd apply the appropriate adjustments for the animal.

I'd echo the comments of others here for new DMs -- to start out with, stick to the rules as written until you're comfortable with how they work, and then begin to tweak them -- particularly if you have a player who will try to take advantage of you.

I learned my lesson a while ago with a druid/sorcerer whose wolverine animal companion became a familiar (I have the one player who likes to push the limits, and I was a bit to generous with him at the beginning). Luckily, an encounter with a giant solved my "wolverine problem" and I've been much more careful since -- all that player's requests get a "no" until he proves they are not unbalancing.

 

[diaglo]

...all that player's requests get a "no" until he proves they are not unbalancing.

and yet he has a Mace of Disruption....thanks Monte Hau...Cook.