Infinate or Limited Potential In Fanatsy?

[rounser]

The way people are using the term, it seems that the opposite extreme to "grim and gritty" isn't "high fantasy", but "munchkin". People define munchkin however they like, and they define grim and gritty as whatever it's not.

Rather annoyingly, some "grim n gritty" enthusiasts fail to make a distinction between "munchkin" and "high fantasy" at all. For evidence, look at the last big FR thread where the prominence of magic in the world was discussed.

 

[Reprisal]

Quoth Hong
That's Ken Hood's rules you're thinking of. The concept, if not the phrase, predates him, though.

Also, deadliness can be achieved in a variety of ways. RttToEE is infamous as a "meatgrinder" dungeon, with multiple PC deaths apparently quite a common occurrence. And yet that's straight by-the-book D&D.

The way people are using the term, it seems that the opposite extreme to "grim and gritty" isn't "high fantasy", but "munchkin". People define munchkin however they like, and they define grim and gritty as whatever it's not.

Ken Hood! Thanks hong, I forgot that one!

I've not taken a look at any modules (ever, heh), so I'm not sure if I could really have any take at the example of RttToEE. But, usually, when I think of things in relation to Grim & Gritty and (Whatever it's opposite is, ) I think more in terms of comparison to how each person stacks up to another person.

You refered to the dungeon as a meatgrinder, but I think that doesn't necessarily make it "Grim & Gritty." For all I know, RttToEE could be epic in scope, and the epitome of heroic high fantasy.

I think... (gathering thoughts)... that both Heroic High Fantasy and Grim & Gritty Fantasy are both very much a state of mind. I don't think that degrees of magic, or the frequencies of dragons and unicorns, have very much to do with whether or not something is HHF or GGF. It helps, but seems to be more of a correlation rather than that of a cause and effect.

I dunno, referring to HHF and GGF as two opposing camps seems very conflictual and very unnecessary.

*Think Think Think*

I'll think about this some more and post later.

 

[Patrick-S&S]

It's where the world sucks, PCs have no chance of meaningful victories, and all the NPCs are better than the PCs.

Nonsense. Even in gritty worlds there are those who are better than others, more successful and the world is usually more detailed and down to earth.

 

[Aaron L]

Huh. I've always liked grim'n'gritty epic fantasy. I must be weird.

Elric was pretty epic, but he was also pretty grim...

 

[rounser]

the world is usually more detailed

In your not-so-humble opinion - backed up by statistics, a panel of experts, and years of research, no doubt.

I don't buy it. Next you'll be telling us that "grim n gritty" worldbuilders are more dedicated and hardworking than their high fantasy counterparts, slaving away to portray this or that subtlety of hardship as their NPCs wallow in the mud of humanity.

 

[rounser]

Where do these associations with "grim n gritty" come from? Dark Sun can be considered "grim n gritty" (you get to die of thirst in the desert if you're unlucky, the apocalyptic landscape is ruled by evil, there are no gods, you'll be hunted down like a dog for using arcane magic etc.). It's definitely grim, and your character may be shanghaied into slavery at the drop of a hat, and that's pretty gritty. But it's also definitely high-powered, arguably high magic, highly fantastic in many respects and arguably "munchkin" as well.

"Ah, but it's balanced out by the cruel nature of the world!" That's beside the point - "grim n gritty" is a style, an attitude, an atmosphere - it doesn't define magic level, fantasy level, realism or munchkinism unless you make it do so. But people pigeonhole it at the other end of the scale to high fantasy anyway...

 

[Patrick-S&S]

In your not-so-humble opinion - backed up by statistics, a panel of experts, and years of research, no doubt.

How did you know? I bet all that D&Ding has made you a really great mind reader right? Sure it must have, otherwise you could haven't read my mind right? C'mon... That is not what I said from the start. I said that GnG does not have to be boring at all, non-heroic or deadly. Most of the GnG worlds I know of are detailed.

I don't buy it. Next you'll be telling us that "grim n gritty" worldbuilders are more dedicated and hardworking than their high fantasy counterparts, slaving away to portray this or that subtlety of hardship as their NPCs wallow in the mud of humanity.

Where did I write this? Is it one of those mind readings again? High fantasy can be as gritty as low fantasy, and heroes or non-heroes as well. I have tried both, but I doubt many of those who says that GnG sucks, has, at least in dept and with a good setting. And for the record, so that this don't flame the cup bearer, I like both versions. Including D&D...

 

[ToddSchumacher]

I'd thought I'd share my thoughts and simple definitions of High Fantasy and Grim and Gritty:

High Fantasy - Dragonlance

Grim and gritty - A Song of Fire and Ice*


I like both, and will happily enjoy playing in either world. So long as everyone playing at my table does as well. If you and your freinds aren't having fun, whats the point?

Its a big enough world, everyone can be happy. One table at a time.


*This post was in no way meant to hijack this thread about the pros/cons of Martin vs. anyone. The examples given above are soley meant for comparison. and if this thread starts to flame out of control I give permission to the moderators to scold me silly and delet this post

 

[Reprisal]

Hmm, I think it might be safe to say that there's a tendency for GGF and HHF to focus on different aspects of a world. I'm not sure what exactly... heck, I'm not even sure that one could decisively say that (this thing) is the province of Grim&Gritty, or (that thing) is mostly Heroic High Fantasy...

But for the sake of avoiding the "Well, there's an example here where what you're saying is flat-out wrong so you must be lying through your teeth! Worthless cur!" syndrome, can we assume that there are some things that tend to relate to one flavour moreso than the other?

For example, it seems to me that there's a tendency for GGF to focus more on the lower end of the social/political/economic strata... the street scum, the footpads, the forbidding cults who sacrifice pedestrians in the cellars next to the Constabulary. It's about low-level corruption, even popular corruption, where commoners act much in the way that only goblins are expected to... The PCs are charged, mainly, with surviving. Not even that, they are charged with living virtuously in a world where the "nice guy" truly finishes last. What's heroic is their perseverance in living a life that is completely opposed to what is expected, what is pragmatic. Truly, no good deed goes unpunished, but the Heroes continue...

For me, HHF tends to focus on the grander battles between the Radiant Knights of the Sun God and the Marauders of the God of Darkness (for example). The corruption is generally seen as being the realistic, but no less clichéd "Powerful, therefore corrupt" where demons, tyrants, or bureaucrats, are the main antagonists. It seems to me that the folk, as presented in HHF, are basically good, and are brutally repressed by the evil tyrant, or theocracy, or what-have-you. The PCs are not generally concerned with simply surviving, but living and acting in such a way that will change the world for the better. Doing good is overtly reinforced.

I dunno, hehe, I suppose like it has been said before, High Fantasy and Grim & Gritty are states of mind, not exactly things that can be given concrete examples of... Still, I thought throwing that out would help shed some light, hopefully, hehe .

 

[rounser]

How did you know? I bet all that D&Ding has made you a really great mind reader right? Sure it must have, otherwise you could haven't read my mind right?

Yeah, that's the ticket. And it's given me mystical powers to detect questionable opinions implied in passing as fact, and point them out as such.

C'mon... That is not what I said from the start. I said that GnG does not have to be boring at all, non-heroic or deadly. Most of the GnG worlds I know of are detailed.

What you wrote was:
"the world is usually more detailed"
...which begs the question, "More detailed than what?" Given the context of the post, it's reasonable to assume that you mean more detailed than non-grim n gritty campaigns. That's a personal view that you can indeed hold. I for one, don't buy it, and extrapolated from it in order to point out what I see as it's questionable side.

Where did I write this? Is it one of those mind readings again?

Nah, I don't do psionics. Must be psarcasm.

High fantasy can be as gritty as low fantasy, and heroes or non-heroes as well. I have tried both, but I doubt many of those who says that GnG sucks, has, at least in dept and with a good setting. And for the record, so that this don't flame the cup bearer, I like both versions. Including D&D...

Fair enough.