Inherent bonus?

[Will]

I was just noodling about and... hrm.

Inherent bonus, given by wish and tomes.

Does it have an effect while polymorphed or in another form?

Now, I'm inclined to say 'no,' but I was wondering if there were any specific mention.

Consider bonus to stats due to equipment. If the character has the item in another form, she has the benefit.

Consider bonus due to feats. Applies, so long as the right 'bits' work.

Inherent bonus doesn't directly increase ability scores... it's a constant bonus, with a cap. In one sense, it's an invisible slotless 'boost item' that stacks with different times of boost items.

But maybe it's its own special case... I dunno. Help?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I don't know of anywhere this is specifically mentioned in the rules, but I'd rule that Inherent bonuses are always active. They're like ability increases due to level gain, except they have a cap and special stacking rules.

So Polymorph might deprive you of the enhancement bonus due to a Circlet of Intellect +6, but your +2 Inherent bonus from a Ring of Wishes would still be active.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is a debated topic.

Lord Pendragon - I would strongly disagree that an inherent bonus is anything like an increase due to level gain.

An increase due to level gain changes the base score of the ability.

A bugbear has a Str of 15.

If I'm a human with a Str of 10, and I place three level increases into Strength (13), and then polymorph into a Bugbear, my Strength is 15. The level increases changed my base score, and it's the base score that I inherit from my new form.

If I cast Bull's Strength, though, and polymorph into a bugbear, I'm a bugbear with a Bull's Strength spell. The +4 enhancement bonus applies, and my Str is 19.

A Wish or a Tome does not change my base score. It provides a bonus - an inherent bonus. It doesn't change my base Str from 10 to 11; I have a base Str of 10, with a +1 inherent bonus.

So when I turn into a bugbear, I have a base Str of 15, with a +1 inherent bonus. Just like the enhancement bonus still applies.

If I'm wearing a Belt of Giant Strength, and polymorph into a bugbear, the bonus still applies. If I polymorph into a gibbering mouther, the Belt will merge with my new form, and the bonus won't apply.

Racial bonuses from my normal form, obviously, don't apply.

But apart from that, pretty much any bonus to my base score will apply as a bonus to my new base score. Any change to my base score will not have any effect on my new base score.

The other side of the debate ("No, inherent bonuses don't apply") relies on the argument that "An inherent bonus isn't actually a bonus".

Those guys are weird, man.

-Hyp.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Personally, I think the cap and stacking rules about inherent bonuses are a load of crap.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Interesting Hyp. I'd have ruled that inherent bonuses do indeed not carry over to a new form. I treat them as non-magical once applied. Basically, they only remain independent from the base scores for the sake of limiting the number of such increases a single character can obtain. And like racial bonuses, inherent bonuses don't carry over to a new form. They are inherent to the form they were added to.

Now that you've chimed in, I wonder if I haven't gone farther than mere interpretation, and unwittingly House Ruled them. Are there any passages in the RAW or FAQ etc. that touch upon this issue? Or are you merely saying that my interpretation is way out there?

 

[Hypersmurf]

And like racial bonuses, inherent bonuses don't carry over to a new form. They are inherent to the form they were added to.

So if someone gets Reincarnated, do you consider inherent bonuses to physical abilities to be lost? The spell states to remove racial modifiers and apply the new ones. Inherent bonuses aren't mentioned.

What if someone Polymorphs into a bugbear, wishes for an inherent bonus to Str, and then polymorphs back?

Where do you get "inherent to the form" from, rather than "inherent to the creature"? Wish states that the bonus applies to the creature, not to the body that the creature happens to inhabit at the time.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

So if someone gets Reincarnated, do you consider inherent bonuses to physical abilities to be lost? The spell states to remove racial modifiers and apply the new ones. Inherent bonuses aren't mentioned.

I couldn't say. I've never had to adjudicate Reincarnate before, to be honest. I'd have to work that out along with all the other craziness in that spell.

Where do you get "inherent to the form" from, rather than "inherent to the creature"? Wish states that the bonus applies to the creature, not to the body that the creature happens to inhabit at the time.

I've always ruled that "inherent to the creature" means "inherent to the creature's true form." If a PC is truly a human, then polymorphing into a bugbear makes him a human polymorphed into a bugbear, not a bugbear. For instance, True Seeing reveals a human, no matter what form he polymorphs into.

It's the same reason why a human with a 15 strength (+5 more than the racial average) doesn't polymorph into a bugbear with a 20 strength (+5 more than the racial average). The human is stronger than average in his true form, but polymorph creates an average body, period. Not an average body with an inherent bonus to strength.

IMO, a Wish changes a person's true nature. They are naturally more intelligent, or their body naturally stronger. It's a change to the true self. It doesn't change the "average member of its race" that Polymorph creates.

 

[Hypersmurf]

IMO, a Wish changes a person's true nature. They are naturally more intelligent, or their body naturally stronger. It's a change to the true self.

If that were the case, though, there would be no stacking or capping issues. The effect of the Wish is persistent, non-magical, non-dispellable... but it's always there. It doesn't make its change and go away, or there would be no problem with adding another point later with a single wish.

It doesn't change the "average member of its race" that Polymorph creates.

Why does the enhancement bonus from Bull's Strength (which was cast on a creature in a certain body) affect the new form, while the inherent bonus from Wish (which was cast on a creature in a certain body) does not?

Both are bonuses that are applied to the base ability score of the character.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If that were the case, though, there would be no stacking or capping issues. The effect of the Wish is persistent, non-magical, non-dispellable... but it's always there. It doesn't make its change and go away, or there would be no problem with adding another point later with a single wish.

The stacking/capping is there, IMO, for game balance reasons (and also IMO not really necessary, given the insane price on Wish). It's sort of like why Expertise caps at 5 as well. No logical reason, just needed to be capped for balance.

Why does the enhancement bonus from Bull's Strength (which was cast on a creature in a certain body) affect the new form, while the inherent bonus from Wish (which was cast on a creature in a certain body) does not?

Both are bonuses that are applied to the base ability score of the character.

This ties back into my previous assertion that the magic from Wish is not persistant. It does it's thing, then it's gone. (You rule otherwise, of course, but IMO.) It changes the true form, then is gone. Bull's Strength on the other hand, is not instantaneous. For its duration, the target is infused with magic that boosts strength. The spell is not dispelled by a polymorph, so it works before and after the change.

 

[Will]

(listens with interest)

So far Hypersmurf is outlining much of what I've gone over. Like 'if it's a permanent change, why does the cap stick around?'

Actually, this also gives me another idea. How about a continual item of Bull's Strength? It doesn't have quite the same effect as belt of giant strength. It's continuous while the item is around, then lasts however long in a new form.

So instead of a +4 ability item for 16,000, a Bull's Strength command-word item for 14,400 that lasts 4 minutes at a time, even if you switch forms.

Separate topic, but just musing.