Inherent bonus?

[Hypersmurf]

This ties back into my previous assertion that the magic from Wish is not persistant. It does it's thing, then it's gone. (You rule otherwise, of course, but IMO.) It changes the true form, then is gone.

So if someone developed an elixir that provides a +2 inherent bonus to Str for 1 minute/caster level (that does not stack with any other inherent bonus to Str), then you'd consider that to carry over to a new form, or not?

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

So if someone developed an elixir that provides a +2 inherent bonus to Str for 1 minute/caster level (that does not stack with any other inherent bonus to Str), then you'd consider that to carry over to a new form, or not?

-Hyp.

Such an elixir could never be created in my game. An inherent bonus doesn't provide a duration. AFAIK the only way to get an inherent bonus is through Wishes or Tomes/Manuals.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Such an elixir could never be created in my game.

Heh.

AFAIK the only way to get an inherent bonus is through Wishes or Tomes/Manuals.

Right. At which point, it applies to the creature.

What's your position on the case of a polymorphed creature Wishing for an inherent bonus, then reverting to his natural form?

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Right. At which point, it applies to the creature.

What's your position on the case of a polymorphed creature Wishing for an inherent bonus, then reverting to his natural form?

He'd see no change while he was polymorphed, and a +1 bonus when he reverted back to his natural form. Wish isn't fooled by Polymorph, it knows what you really are, and applies the bonus to that.

 

[Tatsukun]

Hyper, what's your position on a wish-granted bonus in an anti-magic field? Is is persistant magic?

Does it show up with detect magic?

what's the classification, (su), (ex), (sp) ??

-Tatsu

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyper, what's your position on a wish-granted bonus in an anti-magic field? Is is persistant magic?

Does it show up with detect magic?

what's the classification, (su), (ex), (sp) ??

It's a bonus attached to the character. The magic is instantaneous, but the effect is persistent. So it continues in an AMF, it's not detectable or dispellable, but it's a bonus that applies to the character, just like any other bonus.

A enhancement bonus applies because you wear an item or have a certain spell. If you take the item off, or the spell expires, you lose the bonus.

A racial bonus applies because you are of a certain race. If your race changes (as with Polymorph), you lose the bonus.

An inherent bonus applies because you are a certain character (the character who read the book or used the Wish). If you become a different character, you lose the bonus. But Polymorph doesn't change who you are. It might change your race and your type, but it doesn't change the fact that you're still the same character.

-Hyp.

 

[Will]

I think I'm leading toward inherent bonus being maintained. I was kind of hoping someone knew of some errata, but the discussion has helped me think things out for myself.

One perspective is that a Tome or Wish is like a spell of Bull's Strength, just with infinite duration. There's a stat bonus, it has a limit, and it stacks with enhancement bonuses.

The lack of any specific language saying that the inherent bonus is tied to a specific form or anything to distinguish it suggests treating it like any other magic bonus.

Normal enhancement or other bonuses only vanish when the item the bonus is tied to is neutralized. A tome is an item, it just isn't carried around (in one sense).

The racial adjustments to abilities, on the other hand, are not presented as bonuses. They are simply '+2 Con' or what have you. Ability score bonus over levels are also not presented as a bonus, but simply increase the score.

I'm still willing to listen, but I'm of the opinion that 'it's like other stuff unless otherwise noted.' The language of inherent bonuses makes no specific mention of it being particularly tied to one form, or anything to build a case.

The one serious counter that I can see is that inherent bonus cannot be dispelled. Yes, that conveys some idea that the bonus isn't a riding/magical bonus. However, that rides up hard against the fact it can't be stacked and it has a limit.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Consider also that even an artifact has a chance of being destroyed, if the character is hit by Mordenkainen's Disjunction, but the inherent bonus does not. For me, it seems more sensible that the magic that provided the bonus is simply no longer present, rather than to accept that Wish can create an effect more indestructible than an artifact.

*shrug* Well, I was never in this discussion to convince anyone, just discuss my view with others, so I guess that's all I have.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Inherent bonuses, in my opinion, are very poorly named. I believe that they simply improve your ability score- just like an increase from levels. However, the game designers thought that it was too easily abusable (since I guess playtester DMs were giving out their PCs hundreds of thousands of GP at higher levels, and/or there were dozens of NPCs more than willing to give up a quarter of their level to increase a PC's ability score) so they called it a "bonus", added a cap, and decided that they don't stack (so if you manage to find a +4 Manual of Gainful Exercise, you're gonna have to cough up 130,000 gp for a +5 in order to get that last +1, or you're gonna have to postpone leveling up and cast Wish 5 times on yourself).

However, aside from all other bonuses, these really don't act like bonuses at all. Inherent Intelligence Bonuses DO increase skill points, for example, and these "bonuses" don't go away in an antimagic field, and can't be dispelled.

It's poor writing if you ask me. Inherent bonuses SHOULD stack, and there shouldn't be a cap. Only a lousy DM would allow it to be unbalanced.

 

[Will]

Oh, good point about Intelligence.

Pendragon, feel free to discuss. From a 'legalistic' point of view, I didn't feel confident treating inherent bonus the way you suggest. From a houserule/personal point of view, I prefer an approach much like what you suggest. It may seem strange to split this way, but there's a difference between games I run and what the standard actually is.

Personally, the way I'd prefer to do it is that inherent bonus is treated just like ability score increase. You can wish twice a year apart, and the two +1s increase. A Wish and a +1 Tome, +2. Three +1 tomes in a row, +3 (note that the tome costs are linear).

However, the +5 cap still applies. Why? Well, that's just how it works. Can only 'mutate' so far.

I think the actual language is imprecise and suggests inherent bonus might be a floating bonus. I also think this is kind of stupid and I prefer to do the previous.