Inherent bonus?

[Will]

Hmm. Find myself torn. On the one hand, I prefer the idea of inherent bonus as much like Pendragon suggests.

But unfortunately, when it comes down to it, the only thing suggesting inherent bonus isn't treated like Bull's strength is several suggestive but vague elements: The word 'inherent,' the Wish element (IE: It makes more sense that wish would just make you stronger), and that it can't be dispelled.

Frustratingly vague. Damn you! (shakes a fist at the heavens)

 

[pyk]

(I hate it when crucial rules passages aren't in the SRD!)

Which is why some of us, such as myself, do not approve of the new rules. Forcing us to buy new books to use these rules is ludicrous, when I already have a set of perfectly good rules here (3.0). In 3.0, the bonus from ioun stones may or may not have upped the skills, with the applicable penalty for removing them (as you pointed out). New rules, new game.

As far as inherent bonuses in 3.5, I see these as the same as the level advancement increment. It's a permanent increase, therefore it counts as base stat. It cannot be dispelled, or otherwise removed, only supressed (as in the case of feeblemind).

It really works both ways, and quite well. The only thing is to remain consistent with it.

Personally, as with the mental stats carrying over to the new form, the inherent bonus will carry over, so why should not the physical inherent bonus? Again, my thought is because the inherent bonus becomes part of the base stat. But, this is strictly for my games, as I cannot rule yours.

 

[Will]

The problem, Pyk, is the rulebase that says 'If you use a wish to gain an inherent bonus +1, you'd need two wishes later to get a +2.' The stacking and the fact it has a cap make it very similar to how magic items bestow enhancement bonus.

For example, if you have a cloak of resistance +3 and boots of resistance +2, your bonus is... +3.

I'd _like_ to rule it as you say. I've been somewhat wishing that someone could lay out an ironclad argument why it should be that way.

 

[DarkMaster]

A racial bonus applies because you are of a certain race. If your race changes (as with Polymorph), you lose the bonus.

-Hyp.

Never taught of that, I just applied the score at character generation and forget about it after.

 

[pyk]

The problem, Pyk, is the rulebase that says 'If you use a wish to gain an inherent bonus +1, you'd need two wishes later to get a +2.' The stacking and the fact it has a cap make it very similar to how magic items bestow enhancement bonus.

For example, if you have a cloak of resistance +3 and boots of resistance +2, your bonus is... +3.

I'd _like_ to rule it as you say. I've been somewhat wishing that someone could lay out an ironclad argument why it should be that way.

The stacking and cap requirements are balance issues. Otherwise, once a character (read Wizard) gets to be able to use 9th level spells, what is otherwise to prevent said character from wishing his way to 40 or 50 Intelligence? Using a wish each time this character gains 5,000XP, and he eventually could. Cap it and have stacking requirements fill that bill quite nicely. Want +5 to that ability right now? Sure, 25,000 XP and five wishes. Want +1 each of your next five levels? Sure, 75,000XP and 25 wishes. Now, suppose this character saves up that 75,000XP (without levelling up), and wants to use them all at the same time? With the cap, only +5. Without the cap, +25. This is why the cap exists.

As to why the inherent bonus would not pass on to the polymorphed form for Str, Dex and Con, and do for Int, Wis and Cha? Because you retain your own mental scores, and receive new physical ones. And, I believe the inherent bonuses become part of the base. There are no items that, when worn, carried, or used (not just one-shot like the tomes and manuals), grant inherent bonuses, are there? If there are, then I'll change my position. But, I believe items can not grant inherent bonuses, so this makes the inherent bonus part of the base, just like racial bonuses, and level increases.

 

[Will]

The problem is that the text never actually _says_ 'max is +5 for balance issues.' It could be because it's like magic items, which have various caps (above which they must be epic items). Beyond that, it's just guesswork.

And the stacking issue flies in the face of both magic items (which you can improve by paying the difference) and regular advancement of ability scores (which just stack).

I have an issue with the way the stacking works, because, esthetically, I hate any effect that depends on timing. But that's unrelated to the primary discussion.

You believe the inherent bonuses become part of the base, that's cool. I'm just looking for actual evidence. The problem is that if I cast Bull's Strength on you and you change shape, the new shape still has the strength enhancement bonus. You get feat-related bonuses, too (Dodge, Mobility, maybe improved natural weapon, though again that's up for debate)

The question still boils down to ... what is the inherent bonus? Are you actually changed directly, or is it a constant special effect? The constant special effect explains stacking. Does it resist dispelling just because, or because it actually changed the character directly?

(clawing at his face) I juuuust dooon't knoooow!

 

[pyk]

The problem is that the text never actually _says_ 'max is +5 for balance issues.' It could be because it's like magic items, which have various caps (above which they must be epic items). Beyond that, it's just guesswork.

And the stacking issue flies in the face of both magic items (which you can improve by paying the difference) and regular advancement of ability scores (which just stack).

I have an issue with the way the stacking works, because, esthetically, I hate any effect that depends on timing. But that's unrelated to the primary discussion.

You believe the inherent bonuses become part of the base, that's cool. I'm just looking for actual evidence. The problem is that if I cast Bull's Strength on you and you change shape, the new shape still has the strength enhancement bonus. You get feat-related bonuses, too (Dodge, Mobility, maybe improved natural weapon, though again that's up for debate)

The question still boils down to ... what is the inherent bonus? Are you actually changed directly, or is it a constant special effect? The constant special effect explains stacking. Does it resist dispelling just because, or because it actually changed the character directly?

(clawing at his face) I juuuust dooon't knoooow!

Well, the text never says _anything_ is for balance issues.

As to the rest, well, that's the way I play my game.

Cheers.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Again, my thought is because the inherent bonus becomes part of the base stat.

But it doesn't. It is specifically a bonus. Unlike the level increase, whuch is not a bonus, and does change the base stat, the inherent bonus remains forever as a modifier to the base stat. So even if the base stat if erased and replaced, the inherent bonus, not being a part of that base stat, is unaffected, and continues to modify the new base.

If they wanted it to become a part of the base stat, they just needed to phrase it the way levelups do. In which case, since it would cease to be a bonus, there would no longer be a problem stacking two +1 inherent bonuses. They could still cap inherent increases at 5, but tying to implement stacking rules with increases would get clumsy.

-Hyp.

 

[pyk]

But it doesn't. It is specifically a bonus. Unlike the level increase, whuch is not a bonus, and does change the base stat, the inherent bonus remains forever as a modifier to the base stat. So even if the base stat if erased and replaced, the inherent bonus, not being a part of that base stat, is unaffected, and continues to modify the new base.

If they wanted it to become a part of the base stat, they just needed to phrase it the way levelups do. In which case, since it would cease to be a bonus, there would no longer be a problem stacking two +1 inherent bonuses. They could still cap inherent increases at 5, but tying to implement stacking rules with increases would get clumsy.

-Hyp.

Agreed, it is a bonus, just like the racial bonus, which also changes the base stat, yet is still a bonus.

And, no one can take away the racial stat bonus, except by polymprph. As such, why does inherent bonus not work the same way? Any other kind of bonus can be removed by dispel, anti-magic, etc., but not racial or inherent. Therefore, there is something clearly different about inherent bonuses, yes?

And, that last sentence. Absolutely, stacking rules for increases would be clumsy. Because then there'd be lots of debates as to whether or not the levelup increase stacks with the wish increase.

Oh, and do inherent bonuses keep you alive, if applied to Con, when the base stat drops to 0, where any other kind of bonus applied to Con will not work at that level?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Agreed, it is a bonus, just like the racial bonus, which also changes the base stat, yet is still a bonus.

Actually, you know... looking at the Race section and the Reincarnate spell, the changes to abilities for Race are not listed as bonuses, or penalties, or modifiers.

Under Race, it just says "+2 Con, -2 Cha". Under Reincarnate, it refers to racial adjustments.

They're not bonuses, so they do behave exactly like levelups, and exactly unlike true bonuses (like enhancement, or inherent). "Racial bonuses" apply to skills and saves, not abilities.

Therefore, there is something clearly different about inherent bonuses, yes?

Absolutely. It's a bonus that can't be removed. Why does that mean it's an adjustment and not a bonus?

Oh, and do inherent bonuses keep you alive, if applied to Con, when the base stat drops to 0, where any other kind of bonus applied to Con will not work at that level?

Any bonus does. If I have a Con of 10, and a +4 Amulet of Health, and I take 13 points of Con damage, I'm still alive. If I take the Amulet off, I die. If I take one more point of Con damage, I die.

If I have a Con of 10, and a +4 inherent bonus to Con, and I take 13 points of Con damage, I'm still alive. I can't lose the inherent bonus, but if I take one more point of Con damage, I die.

They behave in the same way.

-Hyp.