D&D General Inherently Evil?

They were smart enough not to dump charisma.


With regard to Call of Cthulhu novel, I just skimmed over it because I didn't remember it. There might not be evidence of evil. The narrator basically explain that exposure to the reality of the world make humans go insane and some unfortunate souls pierce the veil of ignorance. All the killing and murdering describe is done by demented cultists but there is no indication that asleep Cthulhu was consciously sending dreams and knew the effect on human sanity. The only direct evil attributable to the Squid is when people invade his island so he kills them. That's more defending his frontyard than outright evil..

I have surely missed a few things but Great Cthulhu is perhaps as evil as uncaring.
 

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I think the discussion about cats and Cthulhu shows how 'evil' isn't actually an useful concept. If you're the person/bird being terrorised by Cthulhu/cat, does it matter if Cthulhu/cat is 'evil'? It is useless subjective label that has no place in game rules, and frankly, not in most discussion about creating good enemies either. Defaulting such naïve labels just dumb downs the discourse. I really don't remember WoD/Exalted discussions about opposition the characters might face ever being so inane than similar discussions regarding D&D.
 

In don't know if there is truth in that but I read it came from minatures army rules in order to avoid mixing units. They could have chosen blue or red for that but it would hzve been less evocative.
 


Oofta

Legend
I only have passing knowledge of Cthulhu, I have no idea if he qualifies as evil any more than cancer. His cultist followers who want to use the power to destroy are another story.
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
I don't really use alignment for legacies in my current campaign (a "legacy" in my campaign is what is called a "race" in vanilla D&D). Back when I did use alignment (and alignment languages!) back in the 1E AD&D days, I still tried to be nuanced. I took to heart the idea of Roger Moore's old pantheon articles from the Dragon. This bit from the orcs article in issue #62 was informative to my world-building:
In the beginning all the gods met and drew lots for the parts of the world in which their representative races would dwell. The human gods drew the lot that allowed humans to dwell where they pleased, in any environment. The elven gods drew the green forests, the dwarven deities drew the high mountains, the gnomish gods the rocky, sunlit hills, and the halfling gods picked the lot that gave them the fields and meadows. Then the assembled gods turned to the orcish gods and laughed loud and long. "All the lots are taken!" they said tauntingly. "Where will your people dwell, One-Eye? There is no place left!"

There was silence upon the world then, as Gruumsh One-Eye lifted his great iron spear and stretched it forth over the world. The shaft blotted out the sun over a great part of the lands as he spoke. "No! You lie! You have rigged the drawing of the lots, hoping to cheat me and my followers. But One-Eye never sleeps. One-Eye sees all. There is a place for my orcs to dwell... here!" With that, Gruumsh struck the forests with his spea, and a part of them withered with rot. "And here!" he bellowed, and his spear pierced the mountains, opening mighty rifts and chasms. "And here!" and the spearhead split the hills and made them shake and covered them in dust. "And here!" and the black spear gouged the meadows, and made them barren.

"There!" roared He-Who-Watches triumphantly, and his voice carried to the ends of the world. "There is where the orcs shall dwell! There they shall survive, and multiply, and grow stronger, and a day shall come when they cover the world, and shall slay all of your collected peoples! Orcs shall inherit the world you sought to cheat me of!"


In this way, say the shamans, did the orcs come into the world, and thus did Gruumsh predict the coming time when orcs will rule alone. This is why orcs make war, ceaseless and endless: war for the wrath of Gruumsh.
From the standpoint of the orcs, other cultures tried to rob them of any place to live, tried to in effect make them second-class citizens everywhere, and as a result they have a belligerent attitude to others. They always assume the elves/dwarves/etc. are trying to cheat them, because historically it has been so. And so, the PCs had to deal with a conflict where elves intended to take a forest from the orcs who lived there, because they weren't stewarding it properly and it was affecting the forests nearby. And why did the orcs feel so strongly, it had only been inhabited by them for 400 or 500 years, not even a single elven lifetime. Meanwhile, the orcs had lived there for 30 or 40 generations, and had no intention of letting anybody else tell them what to do with their land.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I was telling a story like this to my son after walking the dog one day.

He went to do his business, and of course has to plant on the 3 legs, while holding the pose.

Well as he went to do so, a large ant was walking across the sidewalk. My dog didnt care, didnt notice, and put his paw down and crushed it.

Thats more what Cthulu is to me. Not doing it out of intent, but because its all beneath notice.
That's not how it was written, though.

"It lumbered slobberingly into sight and gropingly squeezed Its gelatinous green immensity through the black doorway. ... The stars were right again, and what an age-old cult had failed to do by design, a band of innocent sailors had done by accident. After vigintillions of years, Great Cthulhu was loose again and ravening for delight."

And...

"Johansen and a sailor named Briden climb aboard the yacht before sailing away. However, Cthulhu dives into the ocean and pursues their fleeing vessel. "

Cthulhu delights in what it does and took notice of the yacht and tried to catch it. It wasn't unaware of the yacht and harming it accidentally.
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Cthulhu delights in what it does and took notice of the yacht and tried to catch it. It wasn't unaware of the yacht and harming it accidentally.
Of course he went after the sailors. He hadn't eaten in vigintillions of years, do you have any idea how hungry that makes a creature? And besides, they were extremely short-lived tiny vermin that grew up around His resting place; if they didn't want to be eaten they should have heeded the nightmare warnings!
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I honestly don't get why it's such a difficult thing to say that sapient-eating is clearly an additional evil act when paired with other evil acts, despite having some (limited) contexts where it is not an evil act if paired with other actions.

Consider, for example, that essentially all cultures (and almost surely gnolls too) will support the notion that assaulting someone is bad, and doing so as part of trying to steal something is clearly wrong/evil. Yet the very same assault--indeed, literally the exact same act or acts--can be made completely unobjectionable if certain events occur first, even in our Western society. We call it "boxing" or "MMA fighting" or the like, situations with rules and structure, with a culture of sportsmanship rather than the mere wild abandon of spontaneous violence or the cold execution of a criminal assault.

Context has always mattered, even for moral realism. Moral realism is not an excuse to turn your brain off and ignore salient details.

Hence: I see zero problem with saying "it is not evil (but remains highly unwise) to eat sapient bodies in some circumstances, but the extremely likely circumstances--committing murder in order to eat the victim, or following up murder with opportunistic consumption of the body--does constitute an independent but connected evil, one enabled but not caused by the foregoing act." Consider taking valuables from the effects of someone whom you have murdered, yet whom you know to have no heirs and no beneficiaries: there is no person left to be harmed (because you killed the only owner the objects could possibly have), yet it is quite clearly understood that this is still, meaningfully, stealing. Even if it weren't murder but instead an accidental killing or self-defense or war or whatever other "justified killing" context you like, stealing from the dead, even if you know there are no inherited to be harmed by such theft, has a wicked edge to it. And if you just so happen to have circumstances like this crop up regularly...well, once is a fluke, twice is coincidence, three times is a pattern, as the saying goes.

Also, as for the harm in consuming the flesh of sapient beings, two things. One, viewing other sapient beings as mere objects is an extremely dangerous precedent, especially given the many IRL evils such thinking has justified (like chattel slavery). Such things are the root cause of a great many evil deeds, and I have no qualms labeling as "evil" any behavior which strongly encourages such views. "When you start treating people as things..." as a certain Sir Terry wrote.

However, some find such broad principles insufficient as an example of evil, despite their serious issues. So, two: the relatives of the deceased. Just as stealing from a dead man harms any inheritors he may have, damaging the body of a dead person harms their friends and loved ones. Funerals, after all, are rarely for the deceased, but instead for their survivors. If a sapient's corpse is "just an object," then in a very meaningful sense that object both belongs, and is supremely important, to those who cared about the person the corpse was. (And this, we can note, is a major difference between the death of sapient and nonsapient creatures; even a very intelligent animal, to the best of my knowledge, at most follows routines associated with the dead person, as in famous cases of dogs going to a master's grave or "going to meet" their deceased master every day at the train station or the like, but quite often the animal simply forgets over time. Humans do not merely grieve, we demand closure, desperately rail against the possibility of death for a loved one, conduct elaborate search efforts until they clearly become futile, and often never truly recover if denied conclusive proof of death. While it may not be the case that all sapient species do this, I must say I find it rather unlikely that any species that did not do this would form stable social groups as humans have, and thus develop an overall culture as we would understand it. (Familial packs/troupes only, no "tribes," and certainly nothing like common language across disparate, geographically isolated populations with no meaningful familial connections.)
 

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