D&D 5E Initiative System (player choice matters) playtest results

[Morrus]

That's actually the ad&d 2nd edition example of play in the player's handbook, the wizard who realizes fireball will be a bad call and changes her mind. The dm warns her to make a call or lose her turn.

I'm not seeing delay for the reasons in the original post and most rounds players dont need to say anything, just roll their dice as not every round needs advanced planning. Honesty, so I dont have to verify their choices, helps save time. As a dm, I'm slowing up the game anytime I choose monster actions. Here, all of us decide at once, so players dont wait as long on me.

So you have 14 monsters, and you have to decide their actions in advance. How is that. It 2-3 minutes of players chatting amongst themselves?

(I’m genuinely curious; my experience of such systems - 1E D&D was such a system, and there’s a reason 3E, 4E, and 5E moved away from it).

 

[toucanbuzz]

@toucanbuzz My experience has matched @Morrus when it comes to declare and then act/resolve initiative. I also would notice players changing their minds after declaring, based on other things happening (e.g. "on no, wait, you're there? I don't want to cast a fireball there, um, I want to Dash over here instead."). Based on playtesting your system, how did you guys handle players changing their minds?

Bounced several options but ultimately settled on using the Ready action rather than allowing a substitute "change your mind" action. Speed is a goal, to lessen "analysis paralysis" during turns where players hold up the game debating the optimal call.

Other thoughts that didnt work or fit goal of speedy play: delay and go on 0 next turn, add a d20 to initiative if changing mind, allow dodge to be substituted.

 

[DND_Reborn]

(I’m genuinely curious; my experience of such systems - 1E D&D was such a system, and there’s a reason 3E, 4E, and 5E moved away from it).

They moved away from it as far as I know because they went from a 1-minute long round, to 6-seconds.

If anything, it makes more sense to have a declaration phase in 5E than in 1E. When you have 6-seconds to decide what to do and act on it, you really shouldn't have time to change your mind in most cases. Your part of the actual round might only be a second or two, after all. In a 1-minute long round for 1E, as events unfold, you have time to change what you are doing.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

So you have 14 monsters, and you have to decide their actions in advance. How is that. It 2-3 minutes of players chatting amongst themselves?

I tell the players my decisions as I make them, and I do it before they have their discussion, so they have some data to base their tactics on.

"This group of cultists are going to shoot someone with their crossbows. That group are rusing you with clubs and swords. The cult leader over there is casting a spell and that weird woman with the green hair, well, you're not sure what she's doing (she's activating a feature to do something horrible)."

 

[toucanbuzz]

I'm not the OP but from his post it looks like players cannot change their minds from his post below.
I'd imagine the caster would lose his Fireball spellslot in your example - should they wish to stop casting it. So either continue and suffer the consequences or lose out entirely. I'm thinking this style of initiative might increase the amount of readied actions.
Otherwise the combat sounds very dynamic and appealing, the latter due to the uncertainty of it all - which is how combat should be.

Yes, things may not always go your way, and the same works for monsters. A declare system creates unpredictable situations so players have to be aware.

 

[toucanbuzz]

The main problem with pre-declaring actions, and the reason I abandoned the idea ages ago, is that far too often a pre-declared action doesn't make any sense by the time your initiative comes up, because things have significantly changed in the fiction during that time. Depends on the leniency of the DM, of course, as to whether declared actions can be abandoned and-or changed depending on circumstance; but IME it led to more arguments than it was worth.

The delays at the declare-actions phase don't often come from individual players/PCs, they IME come from the players trying to plan and co-ordinate their PCs' actions to the nth degree, something they wouldn't have time for on the actual battlefield once combat has begun.

Good that you don't insist on pre-declaring targets or moves.

I heartily endorse re-rolling every round. That said, I'd look for a way to take Dex out of the equation entirely as Dex as a stat already has too much going for it.

One quick way to track durations is for the player whose PC is either affected or who generated that effect to put a d20 on the table set to that number; and also to leave the initiative die on the table. (we all have tons of d20s, right?), and remove the die once it's no longer relevant. That way, anyone can look and ask "what's that 5 there for?".

Question: does this system allow for simultaneous initiatives?

Second question: does movement take time? If yes, does the movement start on the rolled init or end on it? (one thing that really annoys me about most init systems is that movement resolves almost like a mini-teleport - you were there and now >blip< you're here)

We track durations with dice too, great idea.

Tried simultaneous initiative briefly but theorycrafted that it could mess with bonus action synergy, such as a knocking a foe prone and getting a bonus attack. In ad&d which didn't have bonus actions, I think it'd work fine.

Movement costs nothing, unlike greyhawk. This was solely to reduce the number of dice rolled.

 

[Morrus]

I tell the players my decisions as I make them, and I do it before they have their discussion, so they have some data to base their tactics on.

"This group of cultists are going to shoot someone with their crossbows. That group are rusing you with clubs and swords. The cult leader over there is casting a spell and that weird woman with the green hair, well, you're not sure what she's doing (she's activating a feature to do something horrible)."

Yes, but that short speech doesn’t include the decision-making part. I’m not asking about your ability to speak quickly; it’s how long it takes you to decide what each of 14 separate monsters does.

 

[Charlaquin]

So you have 14 monsters, and you have to decide their actions in advance. How is that. It 2-3 minutes of players chatting amongst themselves?

(I’m genuinely curious; my experience of such systems - 1E D&D was such a system, and there’s a reason 3E, 4E, and 5E moved away from it).

In your experience, how often do monsters do something other than the Attack or Cast a Spell action?

Here’s how it has generally gone for me when I’ve used declare-then-roll systems. “The goblins look like they’re going to continue their assault. The shaman is uttering an incantation. What do you do?”

 

[Morrus]

In your experience, how often do monsters do something other than the Attack or Cast a Spell action?

Here’s how it has generally gone for me when I’ve used declare-then-roll systems. “The goblins look like they’re going to continue their assault. The shaman is uttering an incantation. What do you do?”

So you’re asking the players to make specific decisions, but all of the goblins are just “continuing their assault”?

Wait... I’m thinking in terms of miniatures. It matters whether each goblin moves or attacks. Are you using theatre of the mind only?

 

[toucanbuzz]

Legendary Actions. When do they reset? I decided that Legendary Actions are used per-round, not per turn, but it felt weird.
Defend action. When does it start? When does it end? What happens if a player declares defend, then rolls really badly and ends up going last?
Readied Action. What if you declare a Redy Action but end up going last this round and first next round?

Legendary shouldn't change, usable on another creatures turn, resetting at end of each round. Similar to tracking duration.

Not sure of a "Defend" action. If you mean Dodge, same as any other system and the duration would last till your next turn.

Ready action terminates at end of round, so little use if you're last or near last.

Have considered player who readied an action to keep that readied action and go on initiative 0 the next round. This came up in our last session (holding a bow shot ready until enemy came out of invisibility).