Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Nifft]

Thanks, I had missed that when I skimmed that section. It does put a new light on things. I shall consult my books.

If your findings agree with mine, you'll see that the MM explicitly "imports" the whole PHB and DMG early, while the PHB only "imports" bits of the MM and DMG within specific, limited scopes. For example, the Paladin's special mount includes reference to the MM, but Inspire Greatness does not.

So, IMHO, we should first look to the PHB (only) to see if we can satisfy all definitional constraints for Inspire Greatness -- and indeed, it seems we can.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm of the opinion that the definitions in the PHB hold throughout the PHB, unless otherwise specified. "Hit Dice" has meaning in the PHB, but it's not the same meaning as they do in the Monster Manual.

You're of the opinion that, if there's a different definition in another book which can generate an absurd effect, that definition should trump the one in the primary source.

I'm of the opinion that rules apply across the game, not book-by-book.

For example, when the PHB says in the Brew Potion feat "See the Dungeon Master's Guide for rules on potions", this is a courtesy, not a rule-changing line. The rules on potions in the Dungeon Master's Guide would apply to the Brew Potion feat whether or not this line was included; the line doesn't make the rules apply, but rather, it informs the reader that there is more elsewhere.

If it were omitted, those rules would still exist and would still apply to potions; it's just that the reader would need to find them himself.

The rules in the Monster Manual and the DMG are still rules of D&D, even if the PHB doesn't include an invitation for you to go looking for them.

The PHB isn't "importing" rules from the DMG; it doesn't need to, as they already exist. The PHB occasionally helps you to find those rules.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

I'm of the opinion that rules apply across the game, not book-by-book.

For example, when the PHB says in the Brew Potion feat "See the Dungeon Master's Guide for rules on potions", this is a courtesy, not a rule-changing line. The rules on potions in the Dungeon Master's Guide would apply to the Brew Potion feat whether or not this line was included; the line doesn't make the rules apply, but rather, it informs the reader that there is more elsewhere.

If it were omitted, those rules would still exist and would still apply to potions; it's just that the reader would need to find them himself.

The rules in the Monster Manual and the DMG are still rules of D&D, even if the PHB doesn't include an invitation for you to go looking for them.

The PHB isn't "importing" rules from the DMG; it doesn't need to, as they already exist. The PHB occasionally helps you to find those rules.

-Hyp.

I wholeheartedly agree. You are still wrong about the Bonus Hit Dice, though, as i have proven above. Of course, I do not expect anyone to change his/her mind about this at this point.

 

[Nifft]

I'm of the opinion that rules apply across the game, not book-by-book.

The PHB definition of hit dice would be terribly out of place in the Monster Manual. Of course, you'd prefer it only worked the other way, but I hope you can see that it wouldn't work only one way.

For example, when the PHB says in the Brew Potion feat "See the Dungeon Master's Guide for rules on potions", this is a courtesy, not a rule-changing line.

Where do you get that idea? The rules actually say something, and now you're claiming that they don't mean it?

The rules in the Monster Manual and the DMG are still rules of D&D, even if the PHB doesn't include an invitation for you to go looking for them.

The rules of D&D have always been different between players and DMs. Monsters have CRs; PCs have ECLs. Wealth-by-level is not relevant for NPCs unless they come under permanent PC influence.

The rules in the PHB are not a proper subset of the rules of D&D. This is one of the cases where they most blatantly aren't.

The PHB was written to be as self-contained as possible. I think the designers did a reasonably good job of it.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

I'm of the opinion that rules apply across the game, not book-by-book.

Okay, so specifically: what's the Encounter Level of an Adult Red Dragon (CR 15) and a Human Necromancer 17 (CR 17)?

Now what's the Encounter Level if the Dragon has taken the feat "Leadership"?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

The PHB definition of hit dice would be terribly out of place in the Monster Manual.

No, it wouldn't; it would merely be incomplete. The PHB rules for hit dice, in conjunction with the Monster Manual rules for hit dice and the DMG rules for hit dice, give you the complete picture.

Of course, you'd prefer it only worked the other way, but I hope you can see that it wouldn't work only one way.

The rules actually say something, and now you're claiming that they don't mean it?

Not at all. I'm saying the rules say something that is helpful, but not required, for them to say.

I can add a line in the Bull's Strength spell that says "See PHB p6 for the rules regarding the Strength score" (or whatever page it's on), and it wouldn't be incorrect, nor would it be out-of-place, but neither would it be necessary. Bull's Strength incorporates the existing rules of the Strength score without the requirement of a pointer to them.

Similarly, Brew Potion incorporates the existing rules for potions from the DMG, and would even were there no pointer to them in the feat text, because Brew Potion deals with potions, and the rules for potions are in the DMG.

Monsters have CRs; PCs have ECLs.

PCs have CRs and monsters have ECLs as well.

... what's the Encounter Level ...

In your second scenario, is the Necromancer considered the Dragon's cohort? Or does he have a different cohort?

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

No, it wouldn't; it would merely be incomplete. The PHB rules for hit dice, in conjunction with the Monster Manual rules for hit dice and the DMG rules for hit dice, give you the complete picture.

I already have a complete picture with just the PHB's rules. Why would you presume that a player is compelled to seek out rules in other sources just to use a class ability?

Unless you're just talking about an academic understanding. For that, I'd agree: one should read and understand all three to see the different uses of the words "hit dice", and the different rules derived from each.

I can add a line in the Bull's Strength spell that says "See PHB p6 for the rules regarding the Strength score" (or whatever page it's on), and it wouldn't be incorrect, nor would it be out-of-place, but neither would it be necessary. Bull's Strength incorporates the existing rules of the Strength score without the requirement of a pointer to them.

Unnecessary, because it's already in the same book.

Similarly, Brew Potion incorporates the existing rules for potions from the DMG, and would even were there no pointer to them in the feat text, because Brew Potion deals with potions, and the rules for potions are in the DMG.

This argument would be relevant if you had even one example where the rules import wasn't stated, but was relied upon.

PCs have CRs and monsters have ECLs as well.

Really? What's the ECL of the Adult Red Dragon in my example?

How much gold does a first level Kobold Rogue NPC have? Is it 5d4 x 10, or something different?

In your second scenario, is the Necromancer considered the Dragon's cohort? Or does he have a different cohort?

Your first guess is correct. The dragon has 22 hit dice and a +3 Charisma bonus, and the Necromancer is 17th level.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Will]

I don't think it's been said, but something that occurs to me ... maybe there's a difference between +2 HD and 2 bonus HD?

I mean, there's a difference between loosing 2 levels and gaining 2 negative levels, after all.

 

[moritheil]

I don't think it's been said, but something that occurs to me ... maybe there's a difference between +2 HD and 2 bonus HD?

I mean, there's a difference between loosing 2 levels and gaining 2 negative levels, after all.

In a sense, whether or not there is a difference is what the entire debate was about.

 

[Nifft]

I don't think it's been said, but something that occurs to me ... maybe there's a difference between +2 HD and 2 bonus HD?

Welcome to 13 pages ago.

Cheers, -- N