Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Nifft]

I resent that. Yes. Yes, I did.

It's still not a reference to the DMG.

So far as I can tell, starting above 1st level isn't an option presented in the PHB. Would you mind citing the rules which would allow it at all?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Elethiomel]

So far as I can tell, starting above 1st level isn't an option presented in the PHB. Would you mind citing the rules which would allow it at all?

This is true. However, if my GM told me to make a 3rd level character for a new campaign, and specified "standard starting money", I would crack open my DMG, not my PHB, to find those starting money. That means that since I know there is more than 1 core book, I can reference things in other core books than the PHB while making a character without being explicitly told to.

This is a very valuable skill to have when reading rules. It means I can check spells in the PHB when told that a monster has a "spell-like ability", without the Monster Manual ever telling me that that is where spells are located. Likewise, I am able to check up definitions of "Hit Dice" in other places than the PHB because that is something my rules-reading experience tells me is likely to be well-defined in the Monster Manual.

 

[Nifft]

This is true. However, if my GM told me to make a 3rd level character for a new campaign, and specified "standard starting money"

That's a result of your social contract with your DM. In my games, PCs start at 3rd level with 1,000 gp and no permanent magic items.

This is a very valuable skill to have when reading rules. It means I can check spells in the PHB when told that a monster has a "spell-like ability", without the Monster Manual ever telling me that that is where spells are located. Likewise, I am able to check up definitions of "Hit Dice" in other places than the PHB because that is something my rules-reading experience tells me is likely to be well-defined in the Monster Manual.

Look, if we're bringing "reasonable" in as a criteria, I'm going to win. It's not reasonable to change the ECL of a PC half way through a fight. The only hope for breaking Inspire Greatness was through strict rules application, as Hyp is attempting, but even that fails so far.

By the "reasonable" criteria, Inspire Greatness already addresses every major aspect of HD: it grants (an equivalent of) extra hit points, it grants an attack bonus, and it grants a bonus on saves. It even allows the PC to be treated as 2 levels higher for spells that care. Extra feats? Less XP? These things aren't mentioned in the text, and are frankly more trouble than they're worth.

You may have an intuitive grasp of what Hit Dice should mean, but IMHO you should pause and compare it with your intuitive grasp of how Bardic Music should work.

If you want to house rule that Inspire Greatness grants a bonus feat, do it. But do it as a house rule, on the basis that the bolded part here needs more beef: "A bard of 9th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire greatness in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet, granting him or her extra fighting capability." ... rather than on a misreading of the rules.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Elethiomel]

That's a result of your social contract with your DM. In my games, PCs start at 3rd level with 1,000 gp and no permanent magic items.

Look, if we're bringing "reasonable" in as a criteria, I'm going to win. It's not reasonable to change the ECL of a PC half way through a fight. The only hope for breaking Inspire Greatness was through strict rules application, as Hyp is attempting, but even that fails so far.

By the "reasonable" criteria, Inspire Greatness already addresses every major aspect of HD: it grants (an equivalent of) extra hit points, it grants an attack bonus, and it grants a bonus on saves. It even allows the PC to be treated as 2 levels higher for spells that care. Extra feats? Less XP? These things aren't mentioned in the text, and are frankly more trouble than they're worth.

You may have an intuitive grasp of what Hit Dice should mean, but IMHO you should pause and compare it with your intuitive grasp of how Bardic Music should work.

If you want to house rule that Inspire Greatness grants a bonus feat, do it. But do it as a house rule, on the basis that the bolded part here needs more beef: "A bard of 9th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire greatness in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet, granting him or her extra fighting capability." ... rather than on a misreading of the rules.

Cheers, -- N

I'm not trying to "be reasonable", I'm trying to point out that if you didn't know to look up rules in other books than the one you're currently reading, you would have no way of knowing what "Spell like ability: Dominate Person at will (DC 18)" did.

 

[Nifft]

I'm not trying to "be reasonable", I'm trying to point out that if you didn't know to look up rules in other books than the one you're currently reading, you would have no way of knowing what "Spell like ability: Dominate Person at will (DC 18)" did.

Are you serious? "Spell-like ability" is defined in the glossary of both the Monster Manual and the PHB. The intro to the Monster Manual even tells you to look in the Glossary regarding spell-like abilities.

How exactly do you have "no way of knowing"?

-- N

 

[Elethiomel]

Are you serious? "Spell-like ability" is defined in the glossary of both the Monster Manual and the PHB. The intro to the Monster Manual even tells you to look in the Glossary regarding spell-like abilities.

How exactly do you have "no way of knowing"?

-- N

Oh, I'm sorry. Did you not read my previous post, the one you answered by "oh, you're trying to be reasonable"? Let me spell it out for you:

A spell-like ability works like a spell of the same name.

The glossary says nothing about where to look up spells.

Spells are listed in the PHB.

Nowhere in the MM does it say to look in the PHB to find how the spell that a spell-like ability works off of works, so you have no way of knowing how a spell-like ability of a certain description works if your assumption that you have to be explicitly told where to look for whatever rules you are currently reading holds water.

 

[Nifft]

Oh, I'm sorry. Did you not read my previous post, the one you answered by "oh, you're trying to be reasonable"? Let me spell it out for you:

A spell-like ability works like a spell of the same name.

The glossary says nothing about where to look up spells.

Spells are listed in the PHB.

Nowhere in the MM does it say to look in the PHB to find how the spell that a spell-like ability works off of works, so you have no way of knowing how a spell-like ability of a certain description works if your assumption that you have to be explicitly told where to look for whatever rules you are currently reading holds water.

You know that you have to look up spells, and you've already seen spells in Core Rulebook I (which comes before Core Rulebooks II and II). I'll invoke precedence here. Since spells are previously defined, and are not re-defined in the source you're looking at, you don't need to be told where to look for them.

In contrast, consider character wealth. You are explicitly told to look in the DMG for magic equipment. Why? Because the DMG comes after the PHB.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Elethiomel]

You know that you have to look up spells, and you've already seen spells in Core Rulebook I (which comes before Core Rulebooks II and II). I'll invoke precedence here. Since spells are previously defined, and are not re-defined in the source you're looking at, you don't need to be told where to look for them.

I don't find that a compelling argument for "precedent".

 

[Nifft]

I don't find that a compelling argument for "precedent".

Fine. If you need it spelled out, read page 5 of the Monster Manual. Specifically, the second sentence under "Reading the Entries".

Cheers, -- N

 

[Artoomis]

Deleted. No longer needed.

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