Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Artoomis]

I am still having a hard time understanding your Position. Can you tell me what a Rule would have to say in order to Prove to you that Monster Characters and Player Characters follow the same Rules?

That's a tough question - I guess I would need to see a clear rule that overides the character advancement and monster improvement rules.

Characters are presented as advancing (aka improving) solely by level (with some possible optional exceptions in expansion books)

Monsters improve by adding HD, adding templates OR adding levels.

There is absolutey no generic guidance in the rules for what might happen if a character were to gain some sort of non-class hit die.

The rules say characters improve by level, not hit die. Under that scenario, I think that when granting a character some extra/bonus hit die by some mechanism (like Inspire Grteatness), the rules for what happens MUST be specified as there is NO general rule that would apply.

For monsters it is different, because rules exists for what happen when a monster gains a HD in the context of "imrpoving monsters,' and those HD improvement rules specifically exclude those who advance by class - especially for 1HD creatures (like all PHB PCs).

 

[Nifft]

Because it's the first one to appear in the book? That's an artefact of alphabetical order, not a hierarchy of relevance! Detect Chaos appears before Detect Evil, but it refers you to the spell that appears later in the book to get the details.

Detect chaos references detect evil because it says so, not because of any accidents. But that reference is irrelevant, because it cannot be called "precedence", which is the authority you'd tried to invoke.

All precedence is an "artefact" of some kind of ordering. That's not an invalidation. That's just what it means.

Why? You're saying that bonus hit dice aren't hit dice, and the paladin text shows that they are. The bard text's failure to clarify this doesn't mean that it isn't demonstrated elsewhere.

Only if the terms are identical. Since Bard has precedence, the burden is on you to show why the later re-definitions should override earlier definitions in the earlier context.

If you were right, this would be typical editing.

If "temporary hit points" in the bard text inherit definition from "temporary hit points" described later in the book, why not the "bonus hit dice" in the bard text?

... are you seriously asking why the Paladin entry and the Glossary are treated differently? C'mon, man. You're way smarter than that.

I disagree that "incorporeal touch attack" is not a term of art. It is not a touch attack, and it has specific meaning as a phrase.

I'd agree that it's come to be one through discussions in places like this, but it's not defined as such in the SRD. None of the eight occurrences of "incorporeal touch attack" explain the term.

Also, the earlier occurrence of "typical" really means "atypically terrible".

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

... are you seriously asking why the Paladin entry and the Glossary are treated differently? C'mon, man. You're way smarter than that.

Hit Dice are defined in the glossary. I'm not saying that the Paladin entry defines [hit dice]. I'm saying that it shows that the phrase "bonus hit dice" refers to [hit dice], described by an adjective.

So "bonus hit dice" are bonus [hit dice], and thus the phrase "bonus hit dice" in the Bard text can refer to the definition of [hit dice] to determine what these hit dice, which are bonus, bestow.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Yet if a character acquires a hit die from somewhere that is not a class level, he's not going to gain class level features; rather, he'll gain the benefits of greater hit dice.

Well, no - the rules give NO guidance here, so it needs to be defined where it happens.

Right. But if you gain a hit die that's not class-related, you can't look to the class features to determine how you improve.

Correct. There are no rules for what happens, so it needs to be defined where it happens.

The monster improvement section says that a monster who acquires a character class improves according to that class, not his type. It doesn't say he can never improve by type thereafter.

-Hyp.

Actually, it does say that.

It say, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class..."

Whatever is past that first clause is all about what happens after the one-time, forever-changing event of acquiring a character class. If you should happen to gain a bonus HD somehow later, that does not change the fact that you "acquired a character class"

Acquiring a character class is a binary pre-condition - either you have done it or you have not. It is not conditional - like "improve according to class if it is gaining a level, but use type if is gaining a HD"

Nope. It's a one-time event that forever changes the creature. One of those changes is that it now improves by class, not type.

Has they chose to say something like, "Note that if a creature imroves by gaining a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type," well, that would be different.

Honestly I think, at the time this table was published:

1. They never even considered one "improve a monster" by type, not class, once a class was given.

2. That anyone would even consider using this table for PCs.

Thus, the language was, perhaps, not as precisely unambiguous as it might have been.

 

[Nifft]

Hit Dice are defined in the glossary. I'm not saying that the Paladin entry defines [hit dice]. I'm saying that it shows that the phrase "bonus hit dice" refers to [hit dice], described by an adjective.

So "bonus hit dice" are bonus [hit dice], and thus the phrase "bonus hit dice" in the Bard text can refer to the definition of [hit dice] to determine what these hit dice, which are bonus, bestow.

Okay, since you bring it up, let's check the glossary.

Hit Die/Dice (HD): In the singular form, a die rolled to generate hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice of creatures

So going by the glossary definition, the two underlined terms are the extent of the benefits your PC would reap if you won this discussion.

No feats, no skill points, no base attack or save bonuses.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

Okay, since you bring it up, let's check the glossary. So going by the glossary definition, the two underlined terms are the extent of the benefits your PC would reap if you won this discussion.

No feats, no skill points, no base attack or save bonuses.

But just like in the glossary definition of Bonus or Dispel Check, the glossary is a quick reference that doesn't contain all the relevant detail. ("Hit dice are defined in the glossary" was a foolish misstatement on my part - 'referenced', perhaps, would be better than 'defined'.)

Acquisition of feats and ability score increases is governed by total number of hit dice. If you have 10 class levels, and 2 bonus hit dice, your total number of hit dice is 12, so you should have 5 feats from hit dice (1, 3, 6, 9, 12) and three ability score increases (4, 8, 12).

Well, no - the rules give NO guidance here...

Sure they do. Just not in the PHB.

Actually, it does say that.

It say, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class..."

Whatever is past that first clause is all about what happens after the one-time, forever-changing event of acquiring a character class.

Whatever is past that first clause is all about what happens as a result of the discrete event of acquiring a character class. What happens after that is unrelated to that clause.

Has they chose to say something like, "Note that if a creature imroves by gaining a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type," well, that would be different.

Had they chosen to say that, it would be the same as what they wrote, expressed in different words.

-Hyp.

 

[Slaved]

That's a tough question - I guess I would need to see a clear rule that overides the character advancement and monster improvement rules.

Characters are presented as advancing (aka improving) solely by level (with some possible optional exceptions in expansion books)

Monsters improve by adding HD, adding templates OR adding levels.

There is absolutey no generic guidance in the rules for what might happen if a character were to gain some sort of non-class hit die.

The rules say characters improve by level, not hit die. Under that scenario, I think that when granting a character some extra/bonus hit die by some mechanism (like Inspire Grteatness), the rules for what happens MUST be specified as there is NO general rule that would apply.

For monsters it is different, because rules exists for what happen when a monster gains a HD in the context of "imrpoving monsters,' and those HD improvement rules specifically exclude those who advance by class - especially for 1HD creatures (like all PHB PCs).

This does not look to be Negatable.

I will try with an Example I just found though!

The Dungeon Master's Guide should discuss Terms as they relate to both Player Characters and Non Player Characters. When discussing Negative Levels the Dungeon Master's Guide refers only to Levels. When talking about the Condition of being Energy Drained it talks about Levels and Hit Dice interchangeably. The description of the Condition Section talks about Characters as does the Special Abilities Section.

Does a Level 10 Character who is being Buffed by Inspire Greatness and who has 9 Negative Levels instantly die if they gain 1 more Negative Level?

 

[Nifft]

But just like in the glossary definition of Bonus or Dispel Check, the glossary is a quick reference that doesn't contain all the relevant detail. ("Hit dice are defined in the glossary" was a foolish misstatement on my part - 'referenced', perhaps, would be better than 'defined'.)

The benefit of Inspire Greatness and the description in the glossary (note my generosity in not saying "definition") agree, and cover the same two benefits. Why are we compelled to look in other sources? The two instances you claim as primary seem to be the exceptions, since they explicitly call out features not mentioned in the "precedent" (Bard's class ability) or in the Glossary.

Acquisition of feats and ability score increases is governed by total number of normal, regular, actual hit dice.

Bold added by me, not to be disrespectful, but just to avoid repetition.

Cheers, -- N

 

[moritheil]

No. When you gain a level you gain a HD, but not HD features. I suppose one could even make a character class where one did not gain a HD, but that would be more than a little odd.

Savage Species has a few classes like that.

 

[Artoomis]

...
Whatever is past that first clause is all about what happens as a result of the discrete event of acquiring a character class. What happens after that is unrelated to that clause.
...-Hyp.

If that were so, then what happens, say, when gaining a second level in the class "acquired" one level ago? This is not the discrete event of "acquiring a character class," so, by your own reasoning, everyone should advance by type for every advancement past the aquiring of the very first class level.

Clearly that's not the correct interpretation, right?

Gaining a level is not "acquiring a character class," so "acquiring a character class" can only refer the the intial event of "acquiring a character class." In such a case, the sentence only makes sense if ever, after, the creature improves by class rather than by type.

In other words, once a creature finishes "acquiring a character class" (that is, gains its first level in a character class) the class advancement rules control improvement rather that the table about improving by type.

Now, if the sentence talked about "acquiring a character class level," I'd agree with you, but that's not what it says.