Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Hypersmurf]

We know what regular or normal hit dice provide. You can't take a hard line on "bonus hit dice" and simultaneously ask for a fuzzy interpretation of "temporary hit points", because the former is not well defined while the latter is. That's the point of B.

Note that in my latest post, I'm offering a strict reading of 'temporary hit points', under D.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

These are hit dice which, unlike the general rule for hit dice, grant temporary hit points (change); which, possibly unlike the creature's normal hit dice, are d10s (change); and which count as regular hit dice with regard to spells (repetition of general rule). Nothing else is addressed; therefore nothing else about these hit dice differs from the general rules for hit dice.

Except they're not. You're insisting on reading "hit dice" while ignoring the modifier "bonus". This is equivalent to reading "hit points" while ignoring the modifier "temporary".

In the case of the Paladin's mount, this ignorance makes sense, because in the description the term "bonus" is often omitted -- the Paladin's mount's benefit uses "extra" instead, and equates the bonus HD with regular HD in many ways.

However, in the case of Inspire Greatness, the modifier is never omitted. We are not free to chop it off and pretend only the base term applies.

The fact that Inspire Courage's bonus hit dice only count as regular hit dice in one case (spells that check HD) is damnation, not confirmation. Confirmation looks like this:

Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses. A special mount’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

The full benefits of Inspire Greatness are:
- 2 "bonus hit dice", which are not defined, and of no benefit in themselves
- +2d10 +2xCon temporary hit points
- +2 competence bonus to attack
- +1 competence bonus to Fort save
- the two "bonus hit dice" count as regular hit dice against spells

... and that's all. If you can find an instance of "hit dice" which is not preceded by "bonus", you'll have a case.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kraydak]

It's for creatures with one racial hit die. Any creature with more than one racial hit die, 'normal' or not, doesn't replace any.

They're not really extra or optional rules; if the race has more than one racial hit die, the PC will have some racial hit dice.

-Hyp.

As a (very) silly side note, a normal PC, under Inspire Greatness, explicitly has more than one hit die. It reads to me like this (somewhat) retroactively negates the hit die exchange, granting, howsoever one reads the rest of Inspire Greatness bonus HD, humanoid 1!

 

[Artoomis]

As a (very) silly side note, a normal PC, under Inspire Greatness, explicitly has more than one hit die. It reads to me like this (somewhat) retroactively negates the hit die exchange, granting, howsoever one reads the rest of Inspire Greatness bonus HD, humanoid 1!

No, you have to read the "1 HD exchange" note in context - the context being how one modifies creatures in the MM. In that context, they are referring to creatures with a MM entry of 1 HD.

Much of the confusion here (in this whole discussion) results from ignoring context when reading individual lines in the rules.

 

[Nifft]

Much of the confusion here (in this while discussion) results from ignoring context when reading individual lines in the rules.

Yeah. If you bring "context" and "intent" into a rules discussion, a whole lot of insanity evaporates.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

In the case of the Paladin's mount, this ignorance makes sense, because in the description the term "bonus" is often omitted -- the Paladin's mount's benefit uses "extra" instead, and equates the bonus HD with regular HD in many ways.

And so we have precedent that shows that 'bonus hit dice' is a way of describing hit dice that are added above one's normal complement. The phrase isn't a term of art; rather, 'bonus' is an adjective applied to the term of art, 'hit dice'.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Triple post.

 

[Artoomis]

Triple Post

 

[Artoomis]

And so we have precedent that shows that 'bonus hit dice' is a way of describing hit dice that are added above one's normal complement. The phrase isn't a term of art; rather, 'bonus' is an adjective applied to the term of art, 'hit dice'.

-Hyp.

Exactly.

Also, I think each and every instance of "bonus" or "extra" hit dice comes with rules for what happens when you get these "extra" or "bonus" hit dice.

The two things under debate (I think) are:

1. When talking about Inspire Greatness are the "temporary hit points" meant to be used as the glossary defintion or is the phrase being used more generically here because the extra hit points come from having extra hit dice.

I vote "generic" becuase they come from hit dice, but I can readily see the validity of the opposing argument, so I think there are two correct answers.

2. Are there any non-stated benefits to the Inspire Greatness "Bonus Hit Die?"

I vote "no" because PCs do not (normally) gain features based upon HD, they gain them based upon level. No stat boost, no feats, no skill points. etc.

 

[Artoomis]

Yeah. If you bring "context" and "intent" into a rules discussion, a whole lot of insanity evaporates.

Cheers, -- N

"Intent" can be tricky, but context is usually reasonably straight forward.