Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Mistwell]

Okay, you get one point for making it a formula. But negative ten points for being totally irrelevant.

No, it wasn't, and it's still not (despite whatever you edited). The SRD quote below is simply a description of temporary hit points -- which I quote as part of my argument. Trust me, it's not going to win you this argument.

I don't get how you can think your argument makes sense. I've tried to spell out why above.

I'll try to make it more clear. (Also, you should look up "rationale". That's the third time.)

Does this mean you didn't understand the distinction I was making?

Edit: Nevermind

 

[Artoomis]

I don't agree with your reading of this line:
Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type.

You're reading it as "Once a creature has acquired a character class, it forevermore improves according to its class, not its type."

...
Similarly, when I, as a monster, acquire a character class, I improve according to the class, not my type. If I gain a racial hit die, though, I improve according to the type, not my class. The clarification applies to the improvement resulting from the acquisition of a character class, not to any and all improvements that occur subsequent to said acquisition regardless of their nature.

-Hyp.

I'll agree that that's a possible interpretation. I think the way it is written, and the section in which it is presented, means they assume that once you take a class for a monster that it advances only in that class and no longer gets any more racial hit die, as it no doubt true is nearly all cases. I think it is meant mostly for setting up a monster for encounters, not for taking one through an entire life cycle in actual gaming time, but that's just conjecture.

In any case, that is my strongest evidence, and I very much appreciate you weighing in on it.

I did have other evidence backing up my position, too. Notably, for "normal" PCs, racial hit die is replaced by class levels, so they have no racial hit die to gain at all. At least not by core - there is some sort of optional rule dealing with racial hit die for normal PCs, I think, but I do not think that really is at issue here and, besides, I don't really know how those extra rules work, so I find it hard to discuss. (Is that racial paragons where you take a level as a racial paragon? Is that it? I don't recall)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Notably, for "normal" PCs, the racial hit die is replaced by class levels, so they have no racial hit die to gain at all. At least not by core - there is some sort of optional rule dealing with racial hit die for normal PCs, I think, but I do not think that really is at issue here and, besides, I don't really know how those extra rules work, so I find it hard to discuss.

It's for creatures with one racial hit die. Any creature with more than one racial hit die, 'normal' or not, doesn't replace any.

They're not really extra or optional rules; if the race has more than one racial hit die, the PC will have some racial hit dice.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

Between those bonus hit dice, and the bonus hit dice granted by Inspire Greatness?

... are you looking for an answer other than "yes, correct, exactly: that is indeed what I said"?

- - -

Here, let me repost the argument that I'm still waiting for you to answer. It's far better than this quibbling over the word "bonus".

Reposted from page one:

The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.

Basically, there are three possibilities:
A/ the features listed by the text are the full extent of what the bonus HD grant; or
B/ the features listed are explanatory, and mere examples of what the bonus HD grant; or
C/ the features listed are extensions, and are in addition to what the bonus HD grant.

We can rule out C, because both the first feature ("d10s") and the last feature ("... count as regular HD") specifically modify the hit dice. So it's either a case of truly terrible editing, or all the elements in between are also intended to apply to the bonus HD.

B can be ruled out due to the first two clauses: that the bonus HD grant d10s (which are not the hit die type for most classes, nor are they the hit die type for humanoids); but more damningly by the second clause, that the hit points provided by these bonus HD are described as temporary. Hit dice do not grant temporary hit points, they grant regular hit points. Let's look at that passage more carefully:

the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice)

The parenthetical makes it clear that the "temporary" modifier applies to the HP provided by the bonus HD -- that is, it explicitly precludes the possibility that the temporary HP are a separate effect from the bonus HD. (We'd determined that already, but confirmation is always nice.)

Thus, by elimination, the only rational explanation left is A.

Cheers, -- N


PS: Here's another argument for my interpretation, though it's common sense and not based on any strict reading of the RAW. Here's how it goes: what do you expect Hit Dice to grant? The answer is: BAB, saves and hit points. Now look what Inspire Greatness explicitly grants: an attack bonus, a bonus to a save, and some temporary hit points. There's no need to try to read any extra benefits in, because they're already covered.

 

[Artoomis]

It's for creatures with one racial hit die. Any creature with more than one racial hit die, 'normal' or not, doesn't replace any.

They're not really extra or optional rules; if the race has more than one racial hit die, the PC will have some racial hit dice.

-Hyp.

Sure. I meant there are some optional rules for extra human (elf, etc.) racial hit die, I think.

The rules do not seem to make much of an allowance for a monster to gain class levels and then gain racial hit die. Depending upon one's reading, this may or may not actaully be prohibited by the rules as written. I certainly do not think it was anticipated.

Anyway, in the case of normal PHB races, there is no allowance for racial hit die at all. They advance by class level and that's it. At least not by core rules. Maybe some supplement added some rules for this, but it is not the norm for sure.

 

[Artoomis]

...Basically, there are three possibilities:
A/ the features listed by the text are the full extent of what the bonus HD grant; or
B/ the features listed are explanatory, and mere examples of what the bonus HD grant; or
C/ the features listed are extensions, and are in addition to what the bonus HD grant.
...Thus, by elimination, the only rational explanation left is A.

Cheers, -- N

...

Even if the answer is "A," that does not answer whether the hit points granted are actual "temporaray hit points" as per the actual defintion of temporary hit points, or whether these are some sort of "special" temporary hit points that are healable because they come from bonus HD and it was just a terrible editing job by using a technical term in a generic way (gee, that hasn't happened anywhere else in the rules , has it?!?).

 

[Nifft]

Even if the answer is "A," that does not answer whether the hit points granted are actual "temporaray hit points" as per the actual defintion of temporary hit points, or whether these are some sort of "special" temporary hit points that are healable because they come from bonus HD and it was just a terrible editing job by using a technical term in a generic way (gee, that hasn't happened anywhere else in the rules , has it?!?).

When they are in danger of using a technical term in a generic way, it's their job to make it unambiguous. For an example of how they go about this, turn to the class immediately before Bard, and look at its major class feature.

Alternately, look up "temporary hit points" and see the note about Constitution changes.

There are plenty of words they could have used other than "temporary": extra, bonus, transient, ephemeral, evanescent, additional, and special all leap to mind immediately. They didn't. They used the exact phrase "temporary hit points".

Because "temporary hit points" is a term of art with a glossary definition all its own, it should always be looked at as conforming to its glossary definition, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. It's just not up for grabs -- no more than you could try to claim any particular instance of "Will save" indicates an intention to save in the future.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Artoomis]

When they are in danger of using a technical term in a generic way, it's their job to make it unambiguous. ...

Quite right. Too bad they do not do so well at this. A technical term is frequently used in a generic sense in many places throughout the rules. Many previous rules discussions have revolved around such issues.

Alternately, look up "temporary hit points" and see the note about Constitution changes.

That's part of the confusion here. Some of these "temporary hit points" are from CON, whicvn is most unsual and potentially confusing.

There are plenty of words they could have used other than "temporary": extra, bonus, transient, ephemeral, evanescent, additional, and special all leap to mind immediately. They didn't. They used the exact phrase "temporary hit points".

Too true. that, in and of itself, does not mean they chose the correct word,

Because "temporary hit points" is a term of art with a glossary definition all its own, it should always be looked at as conforming to its glossary definition, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. It's just not up for grabs -- no more than you could try to claim any particular instance of "Will save" indicates an intention to save in the future.

Cheers, -- N

Wouldn't that be nice if we could do that? But "temporary hit points" based upon Bonus HD with Con Bonus counted (as usual for HD) are very strange. Maybe they really did mean "temporary hit points," which, I guess, would mean that the value of the points would not change if your Con went up or down. But, since the source of those points is Bonus HD with Con Bonus applied, they really should change with Con changes, which would imply that they would be healable like regular hit points.

So....

I'd say everyone is correct as far as how they treat these "Temporaray Hit Points." As my signature says, "Yes, there can be more than one right answer to a rules question! It can be an exercise in futility to attempt to apply a great deal of precision to an imprecise set of rules."

 

[Nifft]

Wouldn't that be nice if we could do that? But "temporary hit points" based upon Bonus HD with Con Bonus counted (as usual for HD) are very strange.

So what? Seriously, why is this such a big deal? Let me ask by analogy. Here's the definition of Dexterity:

Dexterity (Dex)

Dexterity measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance. This ability is the most important one for rogues, but it’s also high on the list for characters who typically wear light or medium armor (rangers and barbarians) or no armor at all (monks, wizards, and sorcerers), and for anyone who wants to be a skilled archer.

You apply your character’s Dexterity modifier to:

* Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons.
* Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack.
* Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly.
* Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope checks. These are the skills that have Dexterity as their key ability.

Note how Dexterity modifies your ranged attack rolls and not your melee attack rolls.

Now let's consider a PC with the feat Weapon Finesse. Suddenly, a wizard casts cat's grace on him! Does his newly increased Dexterity give him a bonus to melee attack rolls, even though melee attacks are not mentioned as a benefit in the definition of Dexterity? Yes, because they are mentioned in the more specific text of Weapon Finesse. Same thing here. Specific text (in the description of Inspire Greatness) trumps general text.

Maybe they really did mean "temporary hit points," which, I guess, would mean that the value of the points would not change if your Con went up or down.

Why shouldn't the value go up or down as your Con goes up or down? IMHO they are "temporary hit points" which depend on your Con score, because that's what the text says they are. So if your Con goes up, you get more. If your Con goes down, some disappear.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

Basically, there are three possibilities:
A/ the features listed by the text are the full extent of what the bonus HD grant; or
B/ the features listed are explanatory, and mere examples of what the bonus HD grant; or
C/ the features listed are extensions, and are in addition to what the bonus HD grant.

How about D - the general rules for hit dice apply, unless overridden by a detail in the text?

That's how the rules in general work everywhere else. We don't need to reiterate all the rules for Alternate Form under the Lycanthrope description. If we choose to reiterate some of them - like the body reverting to original form when killed, but severed parts remaining unchanged - that doesn't invalidate all the other rules for alternate form. And any places where the lycanthrope's Alternate Form differs from the standard - like physical ability scores - override the general rule, again without invalidating all the other rules for alternate form.

PS: Here's another argument for my interpretation, though it's common sense and not based on any strict reading of the RAW. Here's how it goes: what do you expect Hit Dice to grant? The answer is: BAB, saves and hit points. Now look what Inspire Greatness explicitly grants: an attack bonus, a bonus to a save, and some temporary hit points. There's no need to try to read any extra benefits in, because they're already covered.

Base attack bonus? Base save bonus? Skill points? Feats? Ability score increases?

Inspire Greatness grants an attack bonus. Hit dice grant base attack bonus.
Inspire Greatness grants a bonus to a particular save. Hit dice grant base save bonus, to all saves.
Inspire Greatness grants hit dice. Hit dice grant base attack bonus; base save bonus, to all saves; skill points; feats; ability score increases.

When they are in danger of using a technical term in a generic way, it's their job to make it unambiguous.

See "your next action".

-Hyp.