Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Artoomis]

Let's say we have a gnoll PC or an ogre PC, who has Inspire Greatness used on him.

Do you feel that in this situation, since the PC is a monster, the bonus hit dice will improve his BAB and saves?

-Hyp.

No, but I can see an argument that might support that.

But... I want to stay with basic PCs, not monsters as PCs, to keep it simple, and because rules exist prohibiting basic PCs from using the "Creature Improvement by Type" table, but those rules are not as crystal clear when using Monsters as PCs.

If I could get everyone to agree (hey,... it could happen) that a "regular" PC may not use the "Creature Improvement by Type" table, I would, at that point, be interested in how that might change for mosnters as PCs, or when using some expansion books.

 

[Mistwell]

You may have noticed I was specifically sticking with core rules PCs to keep it simple. I was not dealing with any optional rules, nor with using monsters as PCs.

These are not listed as optional rules. When rules are optional, they call them out as optional (like sidebars or Unearthed Arcana). It's not a CORE book, but that is different from being an optional rule. In this case, it's WOTC using the CORE rules in an expansion book.

You can decline to use books other than CORE books, but I do not see why it's helpful, particularly if it helps clarify the issue by looking to see what WOTC does with it's own rules.

Yes, it is true that a PC can get some intial benefit from racial hit dice when using monsters as PCs, but they do not "improve" that way, unless using other optional rules on managing the impact of ECLs and the like.

This is a shift in your position. You were saying earlier that the Racial Hit Dice rules were reserved just for NPCs/Monsters. Now, you are saying they can be used for PCs, but just initially and not through an improvement. But, you don't have backing for that part (yet). All of your prior posts on the topic assumed a total dismissal of the Racial Hit Dice rules in their entirety for PCs. Now that we both agree they can be used for PCs, the burden is on you to show why temporary hit dice wouldn't work that way.

I think, for the purposes of this discussion, it is best to stick with the core rules for now, come to an agreement (if that is possible) on what the core rules say, and then look to how other books modify that. Even better would be if we stuck only to "normal" PCs until we can agree on how they are handled, then move on to other, more unusual, PCs.

I disagree. We don't know what the CORE means in this case, and looking to an expansion book from WOTC that uses those CORE rules in an example case, like the PC Gnoll or Centaur or whatever, is helpful in figuring out what those CORE rules mean. Besides, the meaning of CORE was degraded a long time ago. Multiclassing rules for prestige classes were left to the Complete books, Swift and Immediate actions were found in expansion books, and the Rules Compendium specifically overrides the CORE books anyway. Whatever value there was in sticking to CORE-only for a debate, I think it's long gone, and even more-so for an issue that is in fact found in the CORE books it's just unclear how to use it (MM is CORE, and so is PHB, and both speak to what happens when something gains hit dice, and an expansion book is helpful in understanding what that thing is since the CORE fails to explain it in sufficient detail for folks like yourself to be satisfied).

"You cannot use the racial hit dice rules for PCs" position is not compelling.

Arguing:

"it shouldn't be used in this case"

is more compelling than:

"it cannot be used in any case, because of obscure interpretations of what is or is not CORE and what a Monster vs. a Creature is, and only if we don't look at expansion books even when those books are using CORE rules to apply them to a new race."

You should focus on your most compelling argument (that it shouldn't work that way in this case) and not stick to shaky ground (that it cannot work that way in any case).

 

[Artoomis]

...This is a shift in your position. You were saying earlier that the Racial Hit Dice rules were reserved just for NPCs/Monsters...

No it's not - you are misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position.

PCs/NPCs from the PHB (NOT including monsters as PCs/NPCs) do not use racial hit die (not counting some expansion book that might change the rules to add something in).

I have completely limited my arguments to normal, average, everyday PCs/NPCs who would be listed in the MM as humanoids having 1 Hit Die.

No character who fits that defintion may use the "Creature Improvement by Type" table.

They are specifically excluded from doing so by quite a few rules.

1. The table itself has this note, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. " (Of course, this applies to ALL creatures, not just PCs, and would apply to monsters as PCs, too.)

2. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table is presented in the context of improving monsters.

3. The humanoid type says: "Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."

4. Even the "Monsters as Races" section states, "Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class. "

5. More from "Monsters as Races:" Creatures with Hit Dice of 1 or less have normal, class-based Hit Dice and features. They get skills and feats appropriate to a 1st-level character (even if they have a level adjustment).

(4) and (5) are not terribly strong statements, granted, but I fail to see how anyone can read (1) and think that the Creature Improvement by Type table applies to the "improvement" of ANY creature with a character class.

Now, if someone wants to argue that Bonus HD are not an "improvement," well, okay, but then the table does not apply in any case as it applies only for "improvements."

 

[Nifft]

That was a formula. It says to make two lists of numbers, it details how to calculate each number, what to SUBTRACT from one list before you SUBTRACT from the other list, and what happens to one set of numbers when the other set of numbers go away. I don't know how complicated a formula you were looking for, but that is a formula. If you think it is not a formula, tell me why.

Okay, you get one point for making it a formula. But negative ten points for being totally irrelevant.

That part was below.

No, it wasn't, and it's still not (despite whatever you edited). The SRD quote below is simply a description of temporary hit points -- which I quote as part of my argument. Trust me, it's not going to win you this argument.

First, the issue at hand: they are temporary increased hit dice, correct?

No. They are bonus hit dice, which is a term that appears nowhere else, and is apparently difficult to suss. Thus, their nature is under contention.

We both agree the hit dice are not permanent, but are temporary?

They are bonus, and they go away when the effect goes away -- but I don't see any limit on the effect's duration. You could hire a Warforged Bard to follow you around and Inspire Greatness in you until your natural death.

And the hit dice come with commensurate hit points, adjusted by your Con as normal for increased hit dice, correct?

Nope. If you read the passage you quote (the one you refer to as "below", above) you'll notice that the normal HP granted by an increased Con score are not temporary. Since Inspire Greatness grants temporary hit points, the extra ones granted by a combination of Inspire Greatness and increased Con score should be regarded as abnormal to the point of uniqueness.

And we both agree that clause I just quoted demonstrates that temporary increases in things which have an influence on hit points (like Con score) are not themselves "temporary hit points" as you are using that phrase, correct?

The hit points that a Con increase always grant are not "temporary hit points". The additional temporary hit points that the combination of a Con increase and Inspire Greatness grant (above and beyond the normal hit points granted by the Con increase) are "temporary hit points".

So when you say you cannot see where I am going with this, can you see it now? You might not agree with it, but you're claiming you don't even get the argument I am making, so I want to make sure it's at least understood first.

I don't get how you can think your argument makes sense. I've tried to spell out why above.

As for your response, you can overuse the word "clearly" til your blue in the face, but it doesn't sound more persuasive. There are two rationale interpretations here, and one is not "clearly" superior to the other on it's face or else we wouldn't be debating this.

I'll try to make it more clear. (Also, you should look up "rationale". That's the third time.)

We agree you can heal hit points that are related to temporarily increased hit dice, right? And we agree that you cannot heal "temporary hit points", right? So we agree these two things (temporary increased Con, and temporary increased Hit Dice) are similar things in the rules, right?

There are no effects that temporarily increase your actual hit dice, so I honestly have no clue if they are handled the same way. I'd imagine so, but I'd like to see one before commenting. ("Begging the question", etc.)

Your theoretical spell notwithstanding, we have plenty of actual rules to work with right now to be requiring hypotheticals.

Does this mean you didn't understand the distinction I was making?

I don't recall mentioning a contradiction. Indeed, I think the reverse is going on: you are trying to lump Temporary Hit Dice (and the commensurate number of hit points as normally adjusted by Con, which would by their nature be described as temporary), with Temporary Hit Points, the thing which is never related to your Con score, and which is never related to your hit dice, and which follows different rules than Temporary Hit Dice increases to hit points such as the ability heal the later.

("Begging the question", etc.) "Temporary hit points" are related to your Con when someone uses Inspire Greatness on you. The fact that they're not governed by Con at other times is irrelevant.

False life grants 1d10+caster level temporary hit points. Aid grants 1d8. Since aid ignores caster level, is false life wrong? No, because there is no standard formula for temporary hit points.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Artoomis]

...You should focus on your most compelling argument...

Okay, I'll do that. My most compelling argument was only recently discovered by me and may have gotten lost in the shuffle.

The Creature Improvement by Type table itself has this note, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type."

All characters of any sort have acquired a character class, thus they "improves according to ... class, not ... type."

Okay, so now we've established that no creature with a class (that's pretty much all characters isn't it?) "improves" by type.

Well, now , so what happens with Bonus HD?

Either:

(1) They are an "improvement" and thus the table does not apply because the creature has a character class

or:

(2) It's not an "improvement" and thus the table does not apply anyway (because, well..., duh..., it's not an "improvement." ).

A final possibility is that this is an "improvement" and thus, per the note above, the character improves by class, gaining a sort of "temporary level," but I think that would voilate too many rules to even be considered.

Okay, I think this is my most compelling argument, and even (suprise!, surpise!) applies to monsters as PCs.

Counter-arguments, anyone?

 

[Hypersmurf]

No. They are bonus hit dice, which is a term that appears nowhere else, and is apparently difficult to suss. Thus, their nature is under contention.

It's been pointed out that both the Druid's Animal Companion and the Paladin's Mount gain bonus hit dice, and their BAB, saves, feats, etc increase as normal.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

It's been pointed out that both the Druid's Animal Companion and the Paladin's Mount gain bonus hit dice, and their BAB, saves, feats, etc increase as normal.

Ah, thanks. Yes, they do. (And the language difference between those extra hit dice and the benefits granted by Inspire Greatness is large.)

Fortunately, the argument which I made in response to you specifically -- and to which I'd appreciate your considered reply -- doesn't hinge on the word "bonus".

Cheers, -- N

 

[moritheil]

Either:

(1) They are an "improvement" and thus the table does not apply because the creature has a character class

or:

(2) It's not an "improvement" and thus the table does not apply anyway (because, well..., duh..., it's not an "improvement." ).

A final possibility is that this is an "improvement" and thus, per the note above, the character improves by class, gaining a sort of "temporary level," but I think that would voilate too many rules to even be considered.

Okay, I think this is my most compelling argument, and even (suprise!, surpise!) applies to monsters as PCs.

Counter-arguments, anyone?

So, your argument is that if they are an improvement they must be in one of two categories. Doesn't this presuppose that the two categories mentioned are the only two possible categories? I could easily read this:

The Creature Improvement by Type table itself has this note, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type."

and conclude that it does not rule out more than two types of advancement, but the text is only concerning itself with the choice between improving according to class and improving according to type.


On an unrelated note,

We agree you can heal hit points that are related to temporarily increased hit dice, right? And we agree that you cannot heal "temporary hit points", right? So we agree these two things (temporary increased Con, and temporary increased Hit Dice) are similar things in the rules, right?

Similar really doesn't mean you treat two things the exact same way . . . squares and rectangles are similar under most systems of rules, and you might easily argue that for most cases they are treated the same, but there are a few cases in which it matters whether something is a square or a rectangle.

If "similar" is good enough, you could go to your DM and say, "Hey, silver and platinum are similar in the rules, right? Both are currency, somewhat corrosion-resistant, have similar coloration . . . I just want to scratch out '100 silver' on my sheet and put '100 platinum' down. No problem, right?"

 

[Elethiomel]

[Removed by moderator request.]
Fixed that for you.

 

[Artoomis]

So, your argument is that if they are an improvement they must be in one of two categories. Doesn't this presuppose that the two categories mentioned are the only two possible categories? I could easily read this:
...
and conclude that it does not rule out more than two types of advancement, but the text is only concerning itself with the choice between improving according to class and improving according to type.
...

Ah, FINALLY, someone is actually taking on the key argument. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Okay, let's say, just for fun, that there are more than two types of "improvement" (note I use the word "improvement" rather than "advancement" because that is the language used in the note and table, but I think they are used as interchangable terms, really).

Can you please explain how that would make any difference? The table is only valid for improving by "type." Thus, if you are improving by neither type nor class, the table STILL does not apply, right?

In fact, there probably IS another way to "improve," and that's by rules that create a special exception and generate an improvement that is neither by type nor class. In such a case, the rule must specify how the improvement is accomplished.

These cases of "improvement" (increase in Hit Die) that have been mentioned are:

Awaken: Affects a monster (animal, in this case); specificies additional hit dice and a creature type change, so the former animal improves as a magical beast using the table as normal for a magical beast.

Druid's animal companion: Affects a monster (animal); specificies bonus 8-sided hit die, special BAB (as Cleric) (same as the table), Good Fort and Reflex (same as the table). Skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. Special STR/DEX bonuses for advancing, special additional tricks, special abilities.

All the rules well spelled out for this special case.

Paladin's Mount: Affects a monster (animal): Becomes Magical Beast, but retains animal characteristics for improving, much like a Druid's animal companion. Has some other specifically spelled out benefits tied to advancement as well.

All the rules well spelled out for this special case.

Inspire Greatness: Affects a character (or monster). Grants Two Bonus (d10) HD, plus Con Bonus and "the commensurate number of temporary hit points", (whatever that really means in this context) plus counts as extra HD for spell effects.

Now, given the way everything is well spelled-out for all the other instances of unusual HD improvement, it seems like this would be all you get for Inspire Courage. Certainly, as I have shown above, the Humanoid (or whatever) Type "improvement" table would not apply.