Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Artoomis]

Arrrgh... another double post.

 

[Artoomis]

...But at this point I am just down to brief statements until Artoomis comes up with a Rule that I can work off of to either Agree with or Contend with. ...So far I see nothing to Support Artoomis's Position...

huh?

Please address the following, specifically, with a specific counter rules quote/rule-based argument:

1. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table does not apply to PCs because it is dealing with improving mosters, and not just creatures in general.

(The Improving Monsters section is for "monsters," not "creatures" in general.)

2. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table does not apply to PCs because of its own note: "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. "

(You have not yet addressed this - this is a new rules quote not yet seen in this discussion, I think. All PCs have acquired a character class, so do not use this table.)

3. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table does not apply to PCs because: PCs are "Humanoids with [a Monster Manual entry of] 1 Hit Die" and thus "exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."

(I have not seen your counter to this yet, unless you intended to counter this one with a vague, general comment about "rephrasing rules,' but that was unclear.)

 

[Slaved]

Those are not "Bonus Hit Die." Those are simply two additional, permanent Hit Dice that rather obviously would fall under the rules for "Improving Monsters". This has no applicability to "Inspire Greatness."

They are Hit Dice not gained through Advancement and can be taken away with Break Enchantment.

If you prefer though the Druid gives Bonus Hit Dice to their Animal Companion.

 

[Mistwell]

I honestly have no idea how you can think what you posted answers my question, or how it is a formula,

That was a formula. It says to make two lists of numbers, it details how to calculate each number, what to SUBTRACT from one list before you SUBTRACT from the other list, and what happens to one set of numbers when the other set of numbers go away. I don't know how complicated a formula you were looking for, but that is a formula. If you think it is not a formula, tell me why.

or how any of it backs up your assertion that by adding a target's Con bonus to temporary hit points negates the usual meaning of the words "temporary hit points".

That part was below.

Right, see the Barbarian's Rage class feature (four pages before Inspire Greatness).

Are you agreeing with me here? You've just posted how a boost to non-temporary (yet still transient) hit points would look. Clearly, you can see there's no such language in Inspire Greatness. Right?

First, the issue at hand: they are temporary increased hit dice, correct? We both agree the hit dice are not permanent, but are temporary? And the hit dice come with commensurate hit points, adjusted by your Con as normal for increased hit dice, correct? And we both agree that clause I just quoted demonstrates that temporary increases in things which have an influence on hit points (like Con score) are not themselves "temporary hit points" as you are using that phrase, correct?

So when you say you cannot see where I am going with this, can you see it now? You might not agree with it, but you're claiming you don't even get the argument I am making, so I want to make sure it's at least understood first.

As for your response, you can overuse the word "clearly" til your blue in the face, but it doesn't sound more persuasive. There are two rationale interpretations here, and one is not "clearly" superior to the other on it's face or else we wouldn't be debating this.

You don't need that Barbarian-type language for that formula to be used. WOTC uses increased hit dice in other books, like the Races Of books, and they do not use the Barbarian language to explain it but simply use increased hit dice like humanoid hit dice. I can name dozens of times when WOTC is not consistent in repeating some explanatory language, but that doesn't mean the lack of that repeated explanatory language negates the use of the ability as normal.

Then you misspoke last post. See your previous post and note the word "heal" in the text. We agree about that, I guess, so ... uh ... okay?

I didn't mis-speak, but perhaps I was not as clear as I should have been. There is a system that designates what is done concerning healing temporary hit points, and the rule is "you cannot". All I said was that the system speaks to the issue, not what it does with the issue.

The usual, non-exceptional hit points granted by increased Con are not temporary hit points.

Indeed, and hit points granted by temporary hit dice are also not "temporary hit points" in the manner you are using them. Because you CAN heal them, which is something you cannot do with "temporary hit points". We agree you can heal hit points that are related to temporarily increased hit dice, right? And we agree that you cannot heal "temporary hit points", right? So we agree these two things (temporary increased Con, and temporary increased Hit Dice) are similar things in the rules, right?

However, if you're subject to an effect that grants you temporary hit points based on your Con bonus, why would you not also gain additional temporary hit points when your Con bonus increases?

Because that isn't what the ability says. It's not temporary hit points based on your Con, it's temporary hit dice, which comes with commensurate hit points as adjusted as usual by Con. That's the distinction. I can think of no way to get "temporary hit points" that are adjusted by your Con score without having them linked to Hit Dice. Can you?

(Consider a spell that gives the subject a bonus on damage rolls equal to his Dexterity bonus. Normally, increasing his Dexterity temporarily would not increase his damage bonus, because Dexterity is not normally added to damage. However, while under the effect of this spell, he would indeed gain an additional bonus to damage commensurate to his increased Dexterity bonus.)

Your theoretical spell notwithstanding, we have plenty of actual rules to work with right now to be requiring hypotheticals.

There's no contradiction. You're just trying to lump two different things into a single category.

Cheers, -- N

I don't recall mentioning a contradiction. Indeed, I think the reverse is going on: you are trying to lump Temporary Hit Dice (and the commensurate number of hit points as normally adjusted by Con, which would by their nature be described as temporary), with Temporary Hit Points, the thing which is never related to your Con score, and which is never related to your hit dice, and which follows different rules than Temporary Hit Dice increases to hit points such as the ability heal the later.

 

[Slaved]

huh?

Please address the following, specifically, with a specific counter rules quote/rule-based argument:

1. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table does not apply to PCs because it is dealing with improving mosters, and not just creatures in general.

(The Improving Monsters section is for "monsters," not "creatures" in general.)

2. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table does not apply to PCs because of its own note: "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. "

(You have not yet addressed this - this is a new rules quote not yet seen in this discussion, I think. All PCs have acquired a character class, so do not use this table.)

3. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table does not apply to PCs because: PCs are "Humanoids with [a Monster Manual entry of] 1 Hit Die" and thus "exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."

(I have not seen your counter to this yet, unless you intended to counter this one with a vague, general comment about "rephrasing rules,' but that was unclear.)

How can I address any of this except to say that I see no support for your Assumption that Player Characters are not Creatures.

There is no reason to Assume the Rules in the Core Books do not apply to all Creatures. In order to Prove to me that there are Vast Differences you would have to show Rules that say so!!!!

 

[Artoomis]

They are Hit Dice not gained through Advancement and can be taken away with Break Enchantment.

If you prefer though the Druid gives Bonus Hit Dice to their Animal Companion.

Good one. It appears, in that context at least, the companion gets full benefit of those Bonus Hit Dice (though some argue about Skill Points and Ability Score boosts, as they are not mentioned).

Not enough to counter my three-point post above, but at least it is directly from the rules.

 

[Mistwell]

I will offer an example of Characters (as opposed to NPCs/Monsters) using racial hit dice.

Races of the Wild, pg. 99, Gnoll. Understand there are two sections under the Gnoll (and all the races mentioned in the book that have racial hit dice). One section is for use with Characters, the other section is for use With Monsters. The Gnoll Characters section says:

Gnoll characters possess the following racial traits:

[List of stuff]
Racial Hit Dice: A gnoll begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1; and a base saving throw bonus of Fort +3, Ref+0, and Will+0.
Racial Skills: A gnoll's humanoid levels give him skill points equal to 5 x (2 + Int modifier). His class skills are Listen and Spot.
Racial Feats: A gnoll's humanoid levels give him one feat.

[List of stuff]

Again, just to be clear, this is for use with PCs, explicitly. It gives the full write-up, Gnoll Characters, Roleplaying a Gnoll, Gnoll Adventurers, all the stuff you find for any new race. There is a different section called "Gnoll Monster Class" for use with NPCs/Monsters.

And there are dozens of these examples throughout the Races Of books.

So, can we put an end to the claim that the rules for Racial Hit Dice are for use only with NPCs/Monsters? They can also be used for PCs, and the question is whether this is one of those times or not, not whether or not the Racial Hit Dice rules can ever be used for PCs.

 

[Artoomis]

How can I address any of this except to say that I see no support for your Assumption that Player Characters are not Creatures.

There is no reason to Assume the Rules in the Core Books do not apply to all Creatures. In order to Prove to me that there are Vast Differences you would have to show Rules that say so!!!!

I have never, ever stated that PCs are not creatures.

I stated that monsters are not PCs.

Attempting to dismiss my arguments by vague "hand-waving" and "grand-standing," which is essentially what you are doing here, is not very... convincing.

I just have given you three specific rules that state that the "Creature Improvement by Type" does not apply to PCs. I'll re-state them here so you can present specific, point-by-point counter-arguments. Note that I am in no way saying PCs are not creatures:

1. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table is in the context of "Improving Monsters" and PCs are not monsters, so it does not apply.

2. The table itself states "if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type," which means the table does not apply to PCs who, in fact, have are creatures who have acquired a character class.

3. PCs are "Humanoids with [a Monster Manual entry of] 1 Hit Die" and thus "exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class." Since they have exchanged "the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class, PCs do not get "the features of their humanoid Hit Die."

I ask you to please tackle these three statements piece by piece, not just in one general "hand-waving" statement.

 

[Artoomis]

...So, can we put an end to the claim that the rules for Racial Hit Dice are for use only with NPCs/Monsters? They can also be used for PCs, and the question is whether this is one of those times or not, not whether or not the Racial Hit Dice rules can ever be used for PCs.

You may have noticed I was specifically sticking with core rules PCs to keep it simple. I was not dealing with any optional rules, nor with using monsters as PCs.

Yes, it is true that a PC can get some intial benefit from racial hit dice when using monsters as PCs, but they do not "improve" that way, unless using other optional rules on managing the impact of Level Adjustments (LAs) and the like.

I think, for the purposes of this discussion, it is best to stick with the core rules for now, come to an agreement (if that is possible) on what the core rules say, and then look to how other books modify that. Even better would be if we stuck only to "normal" PCs until we can agree on how they are handled, then move on to other, more unusual, PCs.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I have never, ever stated that PCs are not creatures.

I stated that monsters are not PCs.

Let's say we have a gnoll PC or an ogre PC, who has Inspire Greatness used on him.

Do you feel that in this situation, since the PC is a monster, the bonus hit dice will improve his BAB and saves?

-Hyp.