Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Artoomis]

Characters all follow the same Rules unless Stated Otherwise. I have found nothing that States Otherwise for Hit Dice and you have not shown anything that States Otherwise.

You are still getting caught up in Advancement. Look at the Creature Type section of the Rules.

Okay, on to the "Types and Subtypes" section, then:

PCs are "Humanoids with [a Monster Manual entry of] 1 Hit Die" and thus "exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."

"Humanoids [who have Monster manual entry] with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type."

There you have it. The "humanoid Hit Die" features do not apply because:

1. The rules specifically so state in the "Types and Subtypes - Types - Humanoid Type" section.

2. The section on hit die featured applies only to monsters, as it is stricly in the context of creating an "extraordinary or unique monsters" by "increasing a monster’s Hit Dice."

Since Inspire Greatness gives "Bonus Hit Dice" to those who are "Humanoids with 1 Hit Die" (as listed in MM), they do not get the features of the "humanoid" type, but get class features instead. Now, since these "Bonus Hit Die" are not class levels either, then the PCs get the extra hit points and the extra HD for spell effects, but that's about it. No humanond hit die features because that's excluded by the above and and no class features because they have not gained a class level.

For monsters (or even monsters as PCs) who get the benefit of Inspire Greatness, I could see an argument taking the opposite position that would be rules-based, at least. I think it would likely fail the "common sense" test for creating an unbalancing between Monster PCs, at least, and other PCs. I am also uncertain it would actually be within the core rules, but I haven't looked at this from the perspective of monsters or monsters as PCs.

 

[Slaved]

Your rephrasing of the Rules changes the meaning.

1 is incorrect because that is not what the Rules say.

2 is incorrect because the Rules apply to all Characters regardless of whether they are played by a Player or the Dungeon Master.

I still have no idea what Rules you are using to say that Characters are not Characters.

 

[Mistwell]

Post it.

"When a character with temporary hit points is dealt damage, deduct the damage from temporary hit points first, then deduct any remaining damage (if any) to the character's actual (nontemporary) hit points. Temporary hit points can cause a character's hit point total to exceed its normal maximum."

and

"Temporary Hit Points

Certain effects give a character temporary hit points. When a character gains temporary hit points, note his current hit point total. When the temporary hit points go away the character’s hit points drop to his current hit point total. If the character’s hit points are below his current hit point total at that time, all the temporary hit points have already been lost and the character’s hit point total does not drop further.

When temporary hit points are lost, they cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic.
Increases in Constitution Score and Current Hit Points

An increase in a character’s Constitution score, even a temporary one, can give her more hit points (an effective hit point increase), but these are not temporary hit points. They can be restored and they are not lost first as temporary hit points are. "

You think temporary hit points are something you can heal?

No, I think they are something you CANNOT heal. But, hit points from increased hit dice CAN be healed.

I don't recall saying that. I think you're adding things to my position and then pointing at those things as bad.

Cheers, -- N

You didn't say that, you said they are temporary hit points and not temporary hit dice that grant commensurate hit points (which, by the nature of the hit dice, are temporary). Temporary hit points (as opposed to hit points from temporary hit dice) "cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic." In addition, while hit points can be changed by things that increase other things (like things that increase your Con score), "but these are not temporary hit points."

Hence, in effect you said they are fixed, since temporary hit points are fixed and cannot be changed based on other changes in the character (like increased Con, or increased hit dice).

 

[Artoomis]

Your rephrasing of the Rules changes the meaning.

1 is incorrect because that is not what the Rules say.

2 is incorrect because the Rules apply to all Characters regardless of whether they are played by a Player or the Dungeon Master.

I still have no idea what Rules you are using to say that Characters are not [Creatures (I presume that's what you meant)].

What re-phrasing? What meaning did I change? Please point it out. The Monster Manual rules say that 1 HD humanoids (which is all normal PCs) do not get humanoid hit die features. I only added clarifying text in brackets because I ripped those sentences out of context, but that did not change the meaning.

And no, not all rules apply equally to all creatures. Some monster rules do not apply to PCs. If the rule says it applies to "monsters," than it is not a PC rule.

All rules about adding racial hit die in the core rules are in the section on improving monsters - that section does not apply to "characters" or even "creatures" in general, but to "monsters." Yes, monsters and characters are both "creatures," but not all "creatures" are characters.

While the term "creature" is indeed used above the "Creature Improvement by Type" table, that table itself is limited in applicability by the fact that it is within the section on "improving monsters" and even further, specifically states that, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. "

Yet MORE evidence that this table does not apply to PCs.

While it is indeed true that most rules for monsters and PCs are the same, the rules for improving monsters (which includes the "Creature Improvement by Type" table) do not apply to normal PCs. PCs are not monsters

Now, what evidence do YOU have that this table applies to PCs? Merely the fact that the table is title "Creature Improvement by Type?"

Yet I have shown by three seperate pieces of rules evidence that:

1. This table does not apply to PCS because it is dealing with improving mosters.
2. This table does not apply to PCs because of its own note: "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. "
3. This table does not apply to PCs because: PCs are "Humanoids with [a Monster Manual entry of] 1 Hit Die" and thus "exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."

Anyone one of those is convincing by iteslf, together they should be considered ovehwelming evidence.

Even if we were to ignore (1) and (3) above, as you seem to be doing, how do you deal with the note "that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type?"

 

[moritheil]

I have yet to see you provide any eveidence at all Atroomis. At best you have declared your position that Levels and Hit Dice are different but have provided no actual Rules Proof supporting this. I see no reason why a Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die is different than another Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die and no reason to not give all of the Benefits a Hit Die would give that Creature.

Perhaps Hypersmurf will be kind enough to help in this matter?

To be fair, Slaved, I have yet to see you accept any evidence that is directly contrary to any position you support in any thread - regardless of the number or caliber of posters that offer said evidence (including Hyp.) I'm going to try to point something out, so please don't take it personally.

I'm not saying you don't have a point with this particular argument here, just that it helps to acknowledge your own bias if you want other people to acknowledge your arguments. There are people you argued to a standstill in other threads that are going to be hesitant to accept that Artoomis hasn't provided quality evidence just because you say it isn't up to your standards.

This sort of harsh, abbreviated dismissal is also a classic example of how people frustrate interlocutors on a BBS:

1 is incorrect because that is not what the Rules say.

It espouses no position and does not offer direct counterevidence - i.e. "This is what the rules say (quote) and this is what you said (quote), and this is the difference; therefore what you said is not what the rules say." It's not a good way to continue dialogue.

I don't mean to come down on you in particular, but I don't have private messaging capabilities and this is the third or fourth time I have seen a post that looks like this:

Oh, man, Slaved, I have to give up trying to convince you.

I have refuted every point you brought up, yet you do not see it. Under such circumstances further argument is pointless.

So, I will bow out. If you bring in anything new, or choose summarize/restate your position in a single post explaining the logic as I have asked, I would be interested in seeing that, otherwise I am done.

Again, I'm not saying you ought to agree with him, just that it seems that this sort of thing can be avoided if you're more expressive of what you believe the rules are saying. This goes for everyone who abbreviates their posts in rules discussions.

 

[Nifft]

Your best case scenario is an unusual form of temporary hit points, since these temporary hit points are modified by your Con score, which never happens for any other temporary hit points, and adds a new element to them

(And all forms of temporary hit points are "unusual". There's no standard formula.)

"When a character with temporary hit points is dealt damage, deduct the damage from temporary hit points first, then deduct any remaining damage (if any) to the character's actual (nontemporary) hit points. Temporary hit points can cause a character's hit point total to exceed its normal maximum."

and

"Temporary Hit Points

Certain effects give a character temporary hit points. When a character gains temporary hit points, note his current hit point total. When the temporary hit points go away the character’s hit points drop to his current hit point total. If the character’s hit points are below his current hit point total at that time, all the temporary hit points have already been lost and the character’s hit point total does not drop further.

When temporary hit points are lost, they cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic.

I honestly have no idea how you can think what you posted answers my question, or how it is a formula, or how any of it backs up your assertion that by adding a target's Con bonus to temporary hit points negates the usual meaning of the words "temporary hit points".

Increases in Constitution Score and Current Hit Points

An increase in a character’s Constitution score, even a temporary one, can give her more hit points (an effective hit point increase), but these are not temporary hit points. They can be restored and they are not lost first as temporary hit points are. "

Right, see the Barbarian's Rage class feature (four pages before Inspire Greatness).

Are you agreeing with me here? You've just posted how a boost to non-temporary (yet still transient) hit points would look. Clearly, you can see there's no such language in Inspire Greatness. Right?

No, I think they are something you CANNOT heal. But, hit points from increased hit dice CAN be healed.

Then you misspoke last post. See your previous post and note the word "heal" in the text. We agree about that, I guess, so ... uh ... okay?

You didn't say that, you said they are temporary hit points and not temporary hit dice that grant commensurate hit points (which, but the nature of the hit dice, are temporary). Temporary hit points (as opposed to hit points from temporary hit dice) "cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic." In addition, while hit points can be changed by things that increase other things (like things that increase your Con score), "but these are not temporary hit points."

Hence, in effect you said they are fixed, since temporary hit points are fixed and cannot be changed based on other changes in the character (like increased Con, or increased hit dice).

The usual, non-exceptional hit points granted by increased Con are not temporary hit points.

However, if you're subject to an effect that grants you temporary hit points based on your Con bonus, why would you not also gain additional temporary hit points when your Con bonus increases?

(Consider a spell that gives the subject a bonus on damage rolls equal to his Dexterity bonus. Normally, increasing his Dexterity temporarily would not increase his damage bonus, because Dexterity is not normally added to damage. However, while under the effect of this spell, he would indeed gain an additional bonus to damage commensurate to his increased Dexterity bonus.)

There's no contradiction. You're just trying to lump two different things into a single category.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Artoomis]

Nifft and Mistwell:

I see both your points. WotC created this confusion by allowing for "Bonus Hit Die" that grant "Temporary Hit Points" (and also count for spell effects).

Nowhere else in the rules are there any "Temporary Hit Points” that are not a fixed value.

Nowhere else in the rules can you get Bonus HD (I think).

The situation created by the language in Inspire Greatness is unique.

I can see both view points as having legitimacy.

As for us, in our group, we allow that the "Temporary Hit Points: from "Bonus Hit Die" are healable because they are not the classic, fixed-value Temporary Hit Points but are Hit Points derived from the Bonus Hit Die, so they can be healed as long as the Bonus Hit Die still exist (until the song effects run out).

I am sure that other groups would not view it that way, and I will not say they are wrong. I think this is one of those cases where the rules are partially contradictory such that both positions are, in fact, correct in that they are defensible by any reasonable reading of the rules.

 

[Slaved]

To be fair, Slaved, I have yet to see you accept any evidence that is directly contrary to any position you support in any thread - regardless of the number or caliber of posters that offer said evidence (including Hyp.) I'm going to try to point something out, so please don't take it personally.

I'm not saying you don't have a point with this particular argument here, just that it helps to acknowledge your own bias if you want other people to acknowledge your arguments. There are people you argued to a standstill in other threads that are going to be hesitant to accept that Artoomis hasn't provided quality evidence just because you say it isn't up to your standards.

To be fair I usually do not Comment when people are correct and I give a lot of latitude as long as the Arguement is Logical. Much of the time that leaves me with nothing to say but I will certainly point out Problems in Logic when I can!

But at this point I am just down to brief statements until Artoomis comes up with a Rule that I can work off of to either Agree with or Contend with. Artoomis is under the Assumption that Monster Rules and Player Rules are Very Different but I see nothing to Confirm this and much that Denies it.

I have provided many direct Quotes and Links to the Rules to either Support my Position or to Show Fault in the Opposing Position. So far I see nothing to Support Artoomis's Position.

I do not know which Rules Artoomis thinks are Different between Monsters created by the Dungeon Master and other Characters. I have no where to look for them as I have found no Evidence of it in the Rules that I do have and Artoomis will not help me by giving me a Rules Quote.

 

[Slaved]

N
Nowhere else in the rules are there any "Temporary Hit Points” that are not a fixed value.

The False Life Spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseLife.htm

Nowhere else in the rules can you get Bonus HD (I think).

The Awaken Spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm

 

[Artoomis]

The False Life Spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseLife.htm

Interesting. A different case, but it has some similarity. In this case the extra variable (above the d10) is based upon caster level, so that cannot change after the spell is cast.

The Awaken Spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm

Those are not "Bonus Hit Die." Those are simply two additional, permanent Hit Dice that rather obviously would fall under the rules for "Improving Monsters". This has no applicability to "Inspire Greatness."