Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Slaved]

Not so easily, not to accomplish the same ends. I think that any other attempt to get the same results would have liklely been more confusing.

Had I written the description, The only thing I would have changed is to remove the word "temporary" in the description.

They could have easily said that the Ability grants 2d10 + twice the Targets Constitution modifier in Temporary Hit Points. This does not bring up Hit Dice at all and has the Effect of granting Temporary Hit Points. By mentioning Hit Dice they bring in everything that Hit Dice represent which means Base Attack Bonus, Saving Throw Bonuses, and the rest.

 

[Artoomis]

Oh, man, Slaved, I have to give up trying to convince you.

I have refuted every point you brought up, yet you do not see it. Under such circumstances further argument is pointless.

So, I will bow out. If you bring in anything new, or choose summarize/restate your position in a single post explaining the logic as I have asked, I would be interested in seeing that, otherwise I am done.

 

[Slaved]

Oh, man, Slaved, I have to give up trying to convince you.

I have refuted every point you brought up, yet you do not see it. Under such circumstances further argument is pointless.

So, I will bow out. If you bring in anything new, or choose summarize/restate your position in a single post explaining the logic as I have asked, I would be interested in seeing that, otherwise I am done.

I have yet to see you provide any eveidence at all Atroomis. At best you have declared your position that Levels and Hit Dice are different but have provided no actual Rules Proof supporting this. I see no reason why a Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die is different than another Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die and no reason to not give all of the Benefits a Hit Die would give that Creature.

Perhaps Hypersmurf will be kind enough to help in this matter?

 

[Artoomis]

I have yet to see you provide any eveidence at all Atroomis. At best you have declared your position that Levels and Hit Dice are different but have provided no actual Rules Proof supporting this. I see no reason why a Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die is different than another Creature whom gains 1 Hit Die and no reason to not give all of the Benefits a Hit Die would give that Creature.

Perhaps Hypersmurf will be kind enough to help in this matter?

No proof? No evidence? ROFL.

Re-read the PHB. PC's don't gain Hit Die like monsters do, they gain levels, which, in turn, grant Hit Die.

Monsters advance by gaining hit die (with appropriate benefits) or levels (with appropriate benefits, including hit die) or applying templates. It's possible for monsters to be played as PCs, but there are special ruels for that, and that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about "normal" PCs.

You are the one who has failed to prove your case. Where is there a PC-applicable rule that gaining a Bonus Hit Die works like a monster advancing and gaining a Hit Die? Without such a rule, a PC with bonus Hit Die is not the same as a moster advancing, which is what the table you keep refering to applies. There is no indication that the table is meant to apply in any instance other than advancing a monster./i]

Now, once gaian, I ask to to re-state your case, step-by-step, showing how a PC with Bonus Hit Dice gets to gain all the benefits of the monster advancement table.

 

[Slaved]

Since my case has not been that the Advancement Rules are used why should I defend it?

I did say that they were an easy place to look up what a Creature gets when a Hit Die is gained but then I also said that looking at the Creature Type is a good place to look as well.

Just like with an Animal Companion gaining Hit Dice not using the Advancement in the Creature Description it is not necessary to look at the Rules for Advancing Monsters when adding Hit Dice to a Creature unless they are being Advanced or a Quick Reference to what is Gained is desired.

Creatures are Creatures and they all follow the same Rules. Any Exceptions are Specific but there are none saying that Characters May Not Gain Hit Dice Through Means Other Than Advancement.

Your contention is that Characters and Monsters follow Completely Different Rules or something like that. This is unfounded as you have not provided Rule Evidence and I have not found any in my search through the Core Books.

Any Character may gain Hit Dice. If those Hit Dice came from Levels those Levels will describe how the Hit Dice work and what they give. If those Hit Dice come from something else it will either describe what they give or they will be treated as the default which would give them Benefits according to their Type. Characters may gain Hit Dice through Sources Other Than Normal Advancement!!!!!

This Link is nice because it shows everything in one place.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice
This Link says that as a Creatures Hit Dice increase they gain the listed Benefits unless the Hit Die comes from a Class in which case it gains Benefits based on the Class.

A Creature is a Creature is a Creature.

 

[Elethiomel]

You are the one who has failed to prove your case. Where is there a PC-applicable rule that gaining a Bonus Hit Die works like a monster advancing and gaining a Hit Die? Without such a rule, a PC with bonus Hit Die is not the same as a moster advancing, which is what the table you keep refering to applies.

The table is irrelevant. It summarises what is gained, but you might look up rules text in the creature type section instead, which would give the same numbers only without the loaded (to you, at least) word "advancement" next to it.

All rules are PC applicable. I can not understand your hang-up about monsters being different from PCs on a fundamental level. The rules treat both the same.

 

[Artoomis]

...Your contention is that Characters and Monsters follow Completely Different Rules or something like that. This is unfounded as you have not provided Rule Evidence and I have not found any in my search through the Core Books...

...


This Link is nice because it shows everything in one place.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice
This Link says that as a Creatures Hit Dice increase they gain the listed Benefits unless the Hit Die comes from a Class in which case it gains Benefits based on the Class.

A Creature is a Creature is a Creature.

Ah, but a "monster" is not a "character."

The link you provided is for Improving Monsters. There is no reason to assume that anything in this section would apply to characters, as characters <> monsters.

Thus, in the core rules, there is no guidance for what happens when a PC gains "Bonus Hit Die" other than what is in the Bard Inspire Greatness description. So, there is no reason to assume you gain any other benefits.

One trying to posit that other benefits are gained must prove it. You have failed to do so, because you have failed to prove that a anything in the "Improving Monsters" section applies to "characters."

The intro to that whole section, including the table you linked to, is:

Improving Monsters
Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.

The table on what happens when you increase a creature's hit dice is in the context of creating an "extraordinary or unique monsters" by "increasing a monster’s Hit Dice."

If you can explain how, taking that context into account, the table can possible apply to PCs given only the cores rules, I'd love it.

 

[Slaved]

Characters all follow the same Rules unless Stated Otherwise. I have found nothing that States Otherwise for Hit Dice and you have not shown anything that States Otherwise.

You are still getting caught up in Advancement. Look at the Creature Type section of the Rules.

 

[Nifft]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm

Increased Hit Dice

Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

Enjoy, -- N

 

[Slaved]

Since the Topic of the Thread is not Advancement does the Quote you provide matter Nifft?