Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Artoomis]

I think you missed my question so I will ask it again.

Why does the word Advanced matter to you so much?

I did answer, but I'll make it clearer.

If one is to gain any benefits to Saving Throws, BAB, etc., etc. based upon HD or level, one can only do so by being "advanced" somehow.

PCs advance by level, not by HD. HD is merely something you get when you advance. Most things for PCs are decided by level, not HD.

Monsters, on the other hand, follow monster advancement rules.

That's why a PC who gets Bonus HD somehow does not "advance" like a monster might, he simple has some Bonus HD, not a increase in level which would grant an increase in BAB, etc.

This all seems very clear when considering the core rules only. When considering supplements that have racial hit die for PCs, one might possibly come to a different conclusion, though I doubt it would really be supportable.

 

[Slaved]

If one is to gain any benefits to Saving Throws, BAB, etc., etc. based upon HD or level, one can only do so by being "advanced" somehow.

?????????Where do you get this from??????? And why does the Bardic Music Ability not qualify???

 

[Artoomis]

?????????Where do you get this from??????? And why does the Bardic Music Ability not qualify???

Well, I will be more specific, unless you are granted a level somehow, you don't get level-advancement benefits.

PC's do NOT get HD benefits like monsters do because, well, they are not monsters. I would LOVE to be convinced otherwise, though.

 

[Slaved]

I have already said that Elves are in the Monstrous Manual. Elves can also be Player Characters from the Players Handbook. Why should an Elf Controlled by the Dungeon Master be Affected differently than an Elf Controlled by a Player?

From what you have said before I take it you would give an Animal Companion the Full Benefits of 2 Animal Hit Dice?

 

[Artoomis]

I have already said that Elves are in the Monstrous Manual. Elves can also be Player Characters from the Players Handbook. Why should an Elf Controlled by the Dungeon Master be Affected differently than an Elf Controlled by a Player?

Actually, as written, an elf advances by character class "Advancement: By character class." Thus that example gains your argument nothing.

From what you have said before I take it you would give an Animal Companion the Full Benefits of 2 Animal Hit Dice?

No, they would get the benefits of two Magical Beast hit dice, like the spell says, as backed by the how the Monster Manual says to do it.

But this means nothing - that's for a monster, not a PC.

 

[Slaved]

Actually, as written, an elf advances by character class "Advancement: By character class." Thus that example gains your argument nothing.

The Advancement line is not important to my line of reasoning.

You said that only the Rules for gaining Abilities from Extra Hit Dice are in the Monstrous Manual and so only good for the Monsters within. Elves are in the Monstrous Manual and so should be able to follow the Rules for a Humanoid With Hit Dice as per the Type Entry in the Monstrous Manual.

No, they would get the benefits of two Magical Beast hit dice, like the spell says, as backed by the how the Monster Manual says to do it.

But this means nothing - that's for a monster, not a PC.

Bardic Music is neither a Spell nor does it talk about Magical Beast Hit Dice.

 

[Artoomis]

The Advancement line is not important to my line of reasoning.

You said that only the Rules for gaining Abilities from Extra Hit Dice are in the Monstrous Manual and so only good for the Monsters within. Elves are in the Monstrous Manual and so should be able to follow the Rules for a Humanoid With Hit Dice as per the Type Entry in the Monstrous Manual.



Bardic Music is neither a Spell nor does it talk about Magical Beast Hit Dice.

Wow, you are really starting to lose me.

How about you explain exactly why Bonus HD would grant you, for example, a better BAB. Also, which BAB? Fighter, Cleric, etc.

The line in the MM (or SRD) that explains about how something gets better with more HD is exclusively for monster advancement, not PCs, so if that is the basis for your argument, can you explain how getting two (or three) Bonus HD is somehow the same as advancing as a monster?

It seems to me that you are taking this monster advancement table out of context.

Goptta run... I';ll check back in on this thread in a few hours or so, or, if I can't, then tomorrow.

As I said, I look foward to seeing a strong, simple argument against me as I'd b]love[/b] to have my character's Inspire Greatness be signifcantly more powerful.

 

[Slaved]

Hit Dice are what give Creatures the Basic Abilities that they have. Class Levels modify the Basic set of abilities given by Type and Hit Dice.

As an example a Humanoid gains Features and Traits as described in the System Resource Document (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) unless a Specific Rule states otherwise.

When gained in a way that is not represented by Advancement there is no reason to even look at the normal method a Creature Advances with.

To further illustrate this point look at the Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm). A sufficiently powerful Druid with a Wolf as an Animal Companion has a 6 Hit Die Wolf that is not Large. How is this possible? It is because the Wolf is gaining Hit Dice but is not gaining them through Advancement.

A Camel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/camel.htm) has a - for Advancement. Does this mean that if it is Awakened it does not gain 2 Hit Dice? If it is an Animal Companion does this mean that it does not get the Extra Hit Dice from being an Animal Companion?

Every Creature has a Type and all of its Hit Dice give it the Benefits and Penalties listed in its Type description unless another Rule says otherwise. Class Levels are an example of a Rule stating otherwise.

 

[Slaved]

As I said, I look foward to seeing a strong, simple argument against me as I'd b]love[/b] to have my character's Inspire Greatness be signifcantly more powerful.

I do not know a Dungeon Master that would allow it! I started this thread with the question of Why Did They Use The Term Hit Dice Since It Is So Heavily Loaded?!?

 

[Artoomis]

I do not know a Dungeon Master that would allow it! I started this thread with the question of Why Did They Use The Term Hit Dice Since It Is So Heavily Loaded?!?

They used "Hit Dice" because:

1. They wanted Con bonus to apply

and

2. They wanted the character to have a greater number of Hit Die for spell effects purposes.