Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Slaved]

The Players Handbook does mostly assume that Levels and Hit Dice are the same because it is the First Book that Players are exposed to. Other books can modify or add to what is said in the Players Handbook. The additional information about Hit Dice in the other two Core Books do not contradict the Players Handbook.

Elves are in the Monstrous Manual I but they can be Player Characters.

Awakened Animals are possible just using the Players Handbook and they can be Player Characters.

The Awaken Spell also does not specifically define the Hit Dice that are given. Do you ignore them completely?

 

[Artoomis]

Double Post

 

[Artoomis]

...Other books can modify or add to what is said in the Players Handbook. The additional information about Hit Dice in the other two Core Books do not contradict the Players Handbook....

Actually, the Monster Manual sets out rules for advancing that clearly do not apply to PCs; the opening of that section (in the SRD) states...

"Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster..."

Note the word "monster" throughout, as oppose to PC, or "Player Character" or even the more generic "character".

Also,. there are special rules for playing monsters as PCs, but that's not really what is at issue here.

The Players Handbook does mostly assume that Levels and Hit Dice are the same ...

The PHB does not assume levels and hit die are the same, it does, however, specify what hit die you gain per level and what other leveling benefits you get. A PC does not get benefits per hit die (other than hit points and some spell effects that depend upon hit dice), but [d]do[/b] get them per level.

...The Awaken Spell also does not specifically define the Hit Dice that are given. Do you ignore them completely?

Of course not, The awakened animal gains hit die per the monster manual, as they are monsters of the "magical beast" type. This is all well-defined and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. They will get d10 hit die and attack advancement as a fighter, as well as a "good" Fort and Ref save; all well-defined and not applicable to PCs, who advance by level, not hit die.

PCs are not monsters, and "monster" rules do not apply to PCs unless they are generic rules - but rules that specifically apply to monsters (as opposed to PCs) are not PC rules.

These advancement rules we are discussing are a special set of rules that specify how monsters advance as opposed to how PCs advance.

So far I fail to see anything even remotely convincing that the monster advancement rules would apply, in any way, to PCs.

 

[Slaved]

Actually, the Monster Manual sets out rules for advancing that clearly do not apply to PCs; the opening of that section (in the SRD) states...

"Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster..."

Note the word "monster" throughout,' as oppose to PC, or "Player Chracter" or even the more generic "character".

Also,. there are special rules for playing monsters as PCs, but that's not really what is at issue here.

It is the Monstrous Manual, why should it say Player Character when that is more limiting than the word Monster?

Why does this mention make you believe that none of the book could possibly pertain to Player Characters? As an example I would have no problem with a Player Character taking one of the Feats in the book if that Character Qualified for it.

The PHB does not assume levels and hit die are the same, it does, however, specify what hit die you gain per level and what other leveling benefits you get. A PC does not get benefits per hit die (other than hit points and some spell effects that depend upon hit dice), but [d]do[/b] get them per level.

The Players Handbook assumes at least some measure of equivalence between the two. Gaining a Character Level gives a Hit Die along with Special Conditions for what it Gives. Without that the default for the Race would be used. Each Hit Die that a Character has helps for Resisting certain Spells. When being brought back to Life a Character usually loses 1 Level or 1 Hit Die.

Of course not, The awakened animal gains hit die per the monster manual, as they are monsters of the "plant" type. This is all well-defined and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. They will get d8 hit die and attack advancement as a cleric, as well as a "good Fort save; all well-defined and no applicable to PCs, who advance by level, not hit die.

Why? The Text of both Abilities give 2 Hit Dice without saying anything about what Type they apply to. Elves are in the Monstrous Manual so why do they not gain Benefits based on their Type while the Animals do? Does an Awakened Animal who becomes a Player Character lose the Benefits of their Extra Hit Dice?

PCs are not monsters, and "monster" rules do not apply to PCs unless they are generic rules - but rules that specifically apply to monsters (as opposed to PCs) are not PC rules.

These advancement rules we are discussing are a special set of rules that specify how monsters advance as opposed to how PCs advance.

So far I fail to see anything even remotely convincing that the monster advancement rules would apply, in any way, to PCs.

The Advancement Rules are separate from both the Bardic Music Ability and Awakening but they are a good place to look for determining what Bonuses a Creature receives when they gain Hit Dice. Any Aspects of those Hit Dice that are not Pre-Defined by the Ability would default to Extra Hit Dice of the Creatures Type.

We can find all of this information in the Creature Type Section as well. Either Section may be used to determine the Benefits gained.

I did not say to Advance the Creatures after all but I did say that the Section shows what is Typically gained by each Creature Type when it gains Hit Dice.

 

[Mistwell]

Guys, racial hit dice for PCs are in probably a third of the books put out in the last three years. Every "Races of" book has some sort of racial hit dice for PCs, for example. There is no question that in some cases racial hit dice can be applied to PCs. The only question is whether this is one of those times, not whether it can be done or is done in the rules.

 

[Artoomis]

Guys, racial hit dice for PCs are in probably a third of the books put out in the last three years. Every "Races of" book has some sort of racial hit dice for PCs, for example. There is no question that in some cases racial hit dice can be applied to PCs. The only question is whether this is one of those times, not whether it can be done or is done in the rules.

But...

In each of those cases it is something special, with special rules.

I find absolutely no evidence that this would apply here.

 

[Artoomis]

...I did not say to Advance the Creatures after all but I did say that the Section shows what is Typically gained by each Creature Type when it gains Hit Dice.

I think not. The PC is not being "advanced" but is simply gaining Bonus Hit Dice that last for a little while.

There is absolutely no indication at all that these Bonus Hit Die represent an "advancement."

Finding no such evidence, it seems clear that these bonus Hit Die are not a character advancement in any sense of the word.

I look forward to being convinced otherwise, as our adventuring group would benefit mightily from such a rule.

I think you are making this too difficult, it's really quite simple. You gain 2 (or three, with the feat) Bonus HD. That's all, not a level, just Hit Dice. Not "racial" HD, just two d10 HD. Temporarily, you get extra hit points from those 2 HD, and you count as having the extra HD for spells. That's about it.

Please convince me I am wrong... I'd love it!

 

[Slaved]

Why does the word Advanced matter to you so much?

If a Creature has 2 Hit Dice that are not from Class Levels the assumption is clearly to use the Type of the Creature to find out what Benefits are gained by those 2 Hit Dice.

It does not matter if the Creature is a Player Character, Non-Player Character, or anything in between.

 

[Artoomis]

Why does the word Advanced matter to you so much?

If a Creature has 2 Hit Dice that are not from Class Levels the assumption is clearly to use the Type of the Creature to find out what Benefits are gained by those 2 Hit Dice.

It does not matter if the Creature is a Player Character, Non-Player Character, or anything in between.

Yes it does.

A PC/NPC advances by level as opposed to monsters who advance by Hit Dice, applying templates or gaining levels.

So a PC who gets extra Hit Dice (unless by using a special racial Hit Dice rule in an optional supplement) is not advancing - they do not get the benefits of a monster gaining HD. Why would they?

 

[Slaved]

I think you missed my question so I will ask it again.

Why does the word Advanced matter to you so much?