Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Stalker0]

You're saying that despite the fact that hit dice are defined, all the features of hit dice must be restated in the ability text or they cease to be true.

No, what he's saying is the text doesn't say you gain +2 HD, it says you gain +2 HD for the purpose of the following effects.

If I say, "This is an apple for the purpose of looks" then you would expect the object I show you to look like an apple. But if you bite into it and find out it tastes like plastic, well that's your own fault

 

[Mistwell]

I personally read it to only give the bonuses stated. So you have the HD, but not saving throw bonuses or BAB bonuses (which ones would you get?) I would give bonuses for things that are HD based, like immune to sleep or for practiced spell caster. Maybe for Vow of Poverty (that I'd likely house rule, I'd have to think about it)

I was just looking at this yesterday. It seems like one of those bonuses that's either darn helpful or sucks depending on the character. VoP would really like this....

Mark

Well, the base ability is just an extra 11 HP on average, plus 2xConBonus. But when you add in all those things that help Inspire Greatness (which, lets face it, is what you do with most characters - focus your feats and items on what the do, so they can do it better) it's pretty good.

With the above example, four people are getting and average of 77.5 hit points plus Con bonus (so a 12 Con = extra 5 HP, and an 18 = extra 20 hp, etc..). So your front line tank is likely ending up with an extra 100 hit points or so to work with over the course of the battle, in addition to +5 attack that stacks with Inspire Courage.

That doesn't suck, even without Hyps' added stuff that come with HD.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, what he's saying is the text doesn't say you gain +2 HD, it says you gain +2 HD for the purpose of the following effects.

But that's not what it says. It says you gain 2 bonus hit dice, and in a later sentence tells you that they count as regular hit dice with respect to spells. Nowhere does it say that they differ from the standard definition of hit dice in any respect except the d10.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

No, what he's saying is the text doesn't say you gain +2 HD, it says you gain +2 HD for the purpose of the following effects.

If it said for the purpose of the following effects, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It doesn't say that. It says: "A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s),"

And the SRD says: "As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type."

It's a fair question. Do you get those things? Maybe. It would be a pain in the butt though. You would need to tell all the players to create a +2HD (or up to +5HD depending on the bard in question) version of their characters. And every time they level they need to essentially level twice.

 

[Nifft]

I think we're looking at the same text and getting different results.

Well, yes.

If I say "Here's a bonus apple. It's red, like a regular apple."... do we assume that it is not round?

The wording isn't like that, though. The very first explicit element listed is an exception -- to use your analogy, if I say, "Here's a bonus apple. It's blue." ... and then list three features of a regular apple, do we assume a fourth, fifth, and sixth?

The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.

Basically, there are three possibilities:
A/ the features listed by the text are the full extent of what the bonus HD grant; or
B/ the features listed are explanatory, and mere examples of what the bonus HD grant; or
C/ the features listed are extensions, and are in addition to what the bonus HD grant.

We can rule out C, because both the first feature ("d10s") and the last feature ("... count as regular HD") specifically modify the hit dice. So it's either a case of truly terrible editing, or all the elements in between are also intended to apply to the bonus HD.

B can be ruled out due to the first two clauses: that the bonus HD grant d10s (which are not the hit die type for most classes, nor are they the hit die type for humanoids); but more damningly by the second clause, that the hit points provided by these bonus HD are described as temporary. Hit dice do not grant temporary hit points, they grant regular hit points. Let's look at that passage more carefully:

the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice)

The parenthetical makes it clear that the "temporary" modifier applies to the HP provided by the bonus HD -- that is, it explicitly precludes the possibility that the temporary HP are a separate effect from the bonus HD. (We'd determined that already, but confirmation is always nice.)

Thus, by elimination, the only rational explanation left is A.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

B can be ruled out due to the first two clauses: that the bonus HD grant d10s (which are not the hit die type for most classes, nor are they the hit die type for humanoids); but more damningly by the second clause, that the hit points provided by these bonus HD are described as temporary. Hit dice do not grant temporary hit points, they grant regular hit points. Let's look at that passage more carefully: The parenthetical makes it clear that the "temporary" modifier applies to the HP provided by the bonus HD -- that is, it explicitly precludes the possibility that the temporary HP are a separate effect from the bonus HD. (We'd determined that already, but confirmation is always nice.)

The "temporary hit points" issue was brought up earlier in the thread. I'm personally of the opinion that these are "temporary [hit points]" - that is, regular hit points that will expire with the effect's duration - rather than "[temporary hit points]".

If someone has 30 hit points, and gains 10 [temporary hit points], and takes 5 damage, they're still on 30/30 hit points with 5 temporary hit points, and a Cure spell will do nothing for them.

If someone has 30 hit points, and gains 2 bonus hit dice which temporarily add 10 hit points, and takes 5 damage, they're on 35/40 hit points, and a Cure spell can cure some of that damage.

If Inspire Greatness were adding [temporary hit points], they wouldn't use the hit dice mechanic to do it; to me, it seems that because the hit dice are ephemeral in nature, the hit points they grant are temporary, but not actually [temporary hit points], and it's an unfortunate coincidence of word order that means that impression might be given.

(An orc who butchers babies might be a monstrous Humanoid, but he's not a Monstrous Humanoid...)

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

The "temporary hit points" issue was brought up earlier in the thread. I'm personally of the opinion that these are "temporary [hit points]" - that is, regular hit points that will expire with the effect's duration - rather than "[temporary hit points]".

My friend, you are reaching. "Temporary hit points" is a term of art in D&D. The writers could easily mess up the description of a unique effect (like Inspire Greatness), but something as common as the phrase "temporary hit points" is just not up for grabs. When they use the words "temporary hit points", they mean temporary hit points.

There are many ways to phrase the effect that you are discussing. For example, "your maximum hit points temporarily increase by XXX".

It's far more likely that the bonus hit dice are exactly as special as the temporary hit points which they grant -- and are thus not actual Hit Dice, just as temporary hit points are not actual hit points.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Artoomis]

We play it as "temporary additional hit die" - no extra feats or stat boosts as those are tied to levels, not hit dice, for PCs.

Anything that ties directly to your number of hit die improves, but not things tied to levels.

The main thing is that we play you can heal any damage you take off of those extra hit points because they come from extra (albeit temporaray) hit die.

The number of hit die one has usually has little effect on a PC except for hit points - most things are tied to level, except for some spell effects that are tied to hit die, and those would go by the temporary increase.

Of course some spells do have effects based upon Hit Dice, and we know that these count for that, at least.

 

[Mistwell]

My friend, you are reaching. "Temporary hit points" is a term of art in D&D. The writers could easily mess up the description of a unique effect (like Inspire Greatness), but something as common as the phrase "temporary hit points" is just not up for grabs. When they use the words "temporary hit points", they mean temporary hit points.

There are many ways to phrase the effect that you are discussing. For example, "your maximum hit points temporarily increase by XXX".

It's far more likely that the bonus hit dice are exactly as special as the temporary hit points which they grant -- and are thus not actual Hit Dice, just as temporary hit points are not actual hit points.

Cheers, -- N

I disagree. I came to the same conclusion about the use of the word "temporary" in that rule, and independent of Hyp.

Your best case scenario is an unusual form of temporary hit points, since these temporary hit points are modified by your Con score, which never happens for any other temporary hit points, and adds a new element to them (what happens if your Con changes while you have those temporary hit points). I see two rationale interpretations there for sure, and I think denying that the other interpretation is at least rationale is a stretch.

 

[akbearfoot]

The book explains how a creature improves when it gains hit dice....but does the book explain what happens to a creature with it gains -bonus hit dice-? I don't think it does....In which case the recipient of -bonus hit dice- gain the exact benefits listed in the description of whatever ability that granted them.

I think it is obvious that the ability was not intended to grant extra BAB or save bonuses or feats. That would be unmistabeably broken. If that was the intent, there wouldn't be a need for the bit about them counting for the purposes of spells. They call out exactly how they are similar to normal hit dice, and anything should be ignored.


I'm also not sold on the idea that song of the heart increases the actual # of bonus HD...rather the total hitpoints....It's already a very strong feat if it only worked on inspire courage. How many other feats effectively say 'your allies all gain +1 to hit and damage'