Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Slaved]

I think that using Words of Creation on Bardic Music Effects leads to Big Problems!

 

[Mistwell]

I think that using Words of Creation on Bardic Music Effects leads to Big Problems!

Fair enough. But even just Song of the Heart adds a +1HD.

 

[Mistwell]

From the SRD:

Increasing Hit Dice

As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type.

Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type.

A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* 8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class.
* Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
* Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies).
* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class.

 

[Nifft]

So no benefit for resisting an Intimidate attempt (1d20 + hit dice + Wis bonus + vs fear bonus)? Determining effect of a Dragon's Frightful Presence on an Inspired character? A Ghaele's Gaze? A Lich's Fear Aura?

Are those spells?

The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.

Looks like you're correct, no benefit whatsoever.

Of course, Bardic Music has a different mechanism for countering Fear effects.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are those spells? Looks like you're correct, no benefit whatsoever.

I don't agree - you've gained two bonus hit dice, and those things check the total of your hit dice.

If I have 4 hit dice, and I gain two bonus hit dice, I don't have fewer than 5 hit dice any more!

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

The trouble is, the bonus hit dice do not say that they function as regular hit dice (except as noted), they simply say that they function as noted.

It may be an editing error that the bonus hit dice are only specified to count as hit dice for the purpose of spells that check hit dice ... but them's the rules.

Cheers, -- N

 

[moritheil]

I am not saying Hyp is wrong. I'm saying my balance senses are tingling. That it might be overpowered, though correct according to the RAW.

I know...it's a bard, so they have plenty of room to grow power-wise before they are overpowered. Still, with all the new feats and items and such, +2 to +5 HD means a pretty big boost!

They say that if you watch long enough, you'll see all sorts of things. I have finally seen someone argue that a bard song is potentially overpowered.

I think that using Words of Creation on Bardic Music Effects leads to Big Problems!

Is this sarcasm, or reference to a known exploit?

 

[Mistwell]

They say that if you watch long enough, you'll see all sorts of things. I have finally seen someone argue that a bard song is potentially overpowered.

Is this sarcasm, or reference to a known exploit?

No he is right, it's not sarcasm.

It depends on how you interpret Words of Creation.

See the Inspire Courage Optimization thread for details.

For example, assume at 10th Level Bard (hardly known for being overpowered):
Feats: Words of Creation, Song of the Heart
Spell: Inspirational Boost (1st level spell, Swift Action, +1 to Inspire Courage);
Items: Vest of Legends (+5 to bard level for Bardic Music purposes); Badge of Valor (+1 Inspire Courage, Immediate Action, 3xday); Battle Rattle instrument (+1 Inspire Courage); Horn of Resilience (+50hp to those already under effect of Inspire Greatness); Masterwork Harp (target one additional creature with Inspire Greatness).

This is all easily doable for said bard with plenty of gold left over for regular armor, weapon, and equipment, plenty of feats left over for character development, plenty of spells left over, etc..

Inspire Courage: Base +2/+2, Vest +3/+3, Song of the Heart Feat +4/+4, Rattle Instrument +5/+5, Swift Action Spell +6/+6, Immediate Action Badge +7/+7, Words of Creation Feat +9/+9 to +14/+14 (or something in between) depending on how you read the feat's bonus. But minimum +9/+9 to the entire party, for all attacks they make, for the entire battle.

Inspire Greatness: Base # Targets: 1, Vest 3, Harp 4; Benefit: Base 2HD (d10s) +2 attacks (stacks with Inspire Courage b/c different type) +1 Fort, Song of the Heart Feat 3HD (d10s) +3 attack +2 Fort, Words of Creation Feat 5HD (d10s) +5 attack, +3 Fort (or more depending on how you read the Words of Creation feat), +50 hp more with Horn. So that is for probably the entire party (4 people), along with Inspire Courage they are all at +14 attack (at least), +9 damage, +3 Fort (and +9 vs. Charm and Fear), +5HD (d10s) with apparently (according to Hyp) all the benefits that +5HD contributes (increased stat bonus, a feat or two, increased saves, increased base attack bonus which also stacks with the attack bonuses mentioned here), and 5d10+Con+50 hit points.

And all of that, and you still have all the other benefits of a bard. You still have lots of skills, and you can cast Haste plenty of times a day on the party, and Dispel Magic at full 10 caster levels, and Dimension Door, and Displacement, and nifty party-boost spells like Elation from BoED, and turn folks invisible, and cast silence on opponent spell-casters as a readied action, and Use Magic Device and Tumble as class skills, and fascinate and command with music an infinite number of times, and boost someone else's skill checks with music, and do nasty things to opponents with other feats like Haunting Melody, and wear up to Mithril Full Plate with the Battle Caster feat, and add charisma to attack and damage again with a Bow of Songs, and add half bard level to damage with a weapon like Crystal Echoblade, and do all sorts of crazy stuff with the Snowflake Wardance feat, etc..

So yeah, a bard can (now, as 3.5 comes to an end) get to the point where they are at least as competitive as any other class, which will result in some folks calling them broken.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The trouble is, the bonus hit dice do not say that they function as regular hit dice (except as noted), they simply say that they function as noted.

It may be an editing error that the bonus hit dice are only specified to count as hit dice for the purpose of spells that check hit dice ... but them's the rules.

I think we're looking at the same text and getting different results.

If I say "Here's a bonus apple. It's red, like a regular apple."... do we assume that it is not round?

The way that I'm reading it, the creature gains 2 bonus hit dice (stated), and they count as regular hit dice for the purpose of spells whose effects depend on hit dice (stated). Because they are hit dice, I know other things about them unless contradicted... and the text doesn't contradict anything except to specify they are d10s.

You're saying that despite the fact that hit dice are defined, all the features of hit dice must be restated in the ability text or they cease to be true.

I'm saying that by calling them hit dice, they function as hit dice except where the ability text says they don't.

If the bonus apple I handed you is red, double-deckered, inedible, and carries Japanese tourists around Buckingham Palace, then there wasn't really any point in calling it an apple... the only relationship to an apple is that it's red. There are a whole lot of things about apples that can be assumed... but not in this case, because despite calling it an apple, I only did so to explain the colour. Calling it an apple is, in fact, not merely confusing but incorrect.

-Hyp.

 

[brehobit]

I personally read it to only give the bonuses stated. So you have the HD, but not saving throw bonuses or BAB bonuses (which ones would you get?) I would give bonuses for things that are HD based, like immune to sleep or for practiced spell caster. Maybe for Vow of Poverty (that I'd likely house rule, I'd have to think about it)

I was just looking at this yesterday. It seems like one of those bonuses that's either darn helpful or sucks depending on the character. VoP would really like this....

Mark