Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Hypersmurf]

Ah, thanks. Yes, they do. (And the language difference between those extra hit dice and the benefits granted by Inspire Greatness is large.)

Between those bonus hit dice, and the bonus hit dice granted by Inspire Greatness?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Fixed that for you.

None of that, please.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Artoomis]

Fixed that for you.

[Redacted: Hypersmurf beat me to it ]

BTW, as it turns out my argument holds up very well in all cases, with the possible exception of some optional rules that might specifically overide the core rules to allow racial hit die advancement for PCs somehow.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Awaken: Affects a monster (animal, in this case); specificies additional hit dice and a creature type change, so the former animal improves as a magical beast using the table as normal for a magical beast.

Pretty much improves as an Animal, in all the important aspects; things like hit dice, BAB, saves, and skill points (the type-specific things that improve with hit dice) are faetures, not traits; and the Awakened creature is a Magical Beast (Augmented Animal), meaning it has the traits of a Magical Beast, but the features of an Animal.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Between those bonus hit dice, and the bonus hit dice granted by Inspire Greatness?

-Hyp.

Actually, yes, there is a lot of language difference between how those other Bonus HD are presented and how the Inspire Greatness Bonus HD are presented.

Though that's not my argument. My argument is that characters with class levels may no longer use the "type" improvement table (they might possibly for monster improvements taken prior to taking a class). The table itself specifies this.

 

[Elethiomel]

Actually, yes, there is a lot of language difference between how those other Bonus HD are presented and how the Inspire Greatness Bonus HD are presented.

Though that's not my argument. My argument is that characters with class levels may no longer use the "type" improvement table (they might possibly for monster improvements taken prior to taking a class). The table itself specifies this.

So you're arguing that once a Dragon takes a level of Sorcerer, it can no longer age?

 

[Artoomis]

Pretty much improves as an Animal, in all the important aspects; things like hit dice, BAB, saves, and skill points (the type-specific things that improve with hit dice) are faetures, not traits; and the Awakened creature is a Magical Beast (Augmented Animal), meaning it has the traits of a Magical Beast, but the features of an Animal.

-Hyp.

Okay, I'll correct the post above. My mistake Still, the rules are clear on this one, and that is the point.

 

[Mistwell]

No it's not - you are misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position.

PCs/NPCs from the PHB (NOT including monsters as PCs/NPCs) do not use racial hit die (not counting some expansion book that might change the rules to add something in).

I have completely limited my arguments to normal, average, everyday PCs/NPCs who would be listed in the MM as humanoids having 1 Hit Die.

No character who fits that defintion may use the "Creature Improvement by Type" table.

They are specifically excluded from doing so by quite a few rules.

1. The table itself has this note, "Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. " (Of course, this applies to ALL creatures, not just PCs, and would apply to monsters as PCs, too.)

2. The "Creature Improvement by Type" table is presented in the context of improving monsters.

3. The humanoid type says: "Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class."

4. Even the "Monsters as Races" section states, "Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class. "

5. More from "Monsters as Races:" Creatures with Hit Dice of 1 or less have normal, class-based Hit Dice and features. They get skills and feats appropriate to a 1st-level character (even if they have a level adjustment).

(4) and (5) are not terribly strong statements, granted, but I fail to see how anyone can read (1) and think that the Creature Improvement by Type table applies to the "improvement" of ANY creature with a character class.

Now, if someone wants to argue that Bonus HD are not an "improvement," well, okay, but then the table does not apply in any case as it applies only for "improvements."

I gave you the reason for looking outside of CORE, and you ignored it. It was written just in response to your post. And you previously complained in this thread people were not responding to your post. So, have the same respect for your peers. I didn't write it for my health.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Though that's not my argument. My argument is that characters with class levels may no longer use the "type" improvement table (they might possibly for monster improvements taken prior to taking a class). The table itself specifies this.

I don't agree with your reading of this line:
Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type.

You're reading it as "Once a creature has acquired a character class, it forevermore improves according to its class, not its type."

Consider the following analogous sentence:
"Note that if a customer purchases a Canadian product, he pays in Canadian dollars, not in US dollars."

If I purchase a Canadian product, I pay for that product in Canadian dollars. If I subsequently buy a US product, am I still bound by that rule? I'm a customer who has purchased a Canadian product; am I therefore required to pay for all subsequent purchases, be they US or otherwise, in Canadian dollars?

The restriction applies to the transaction involving the Canadian product, not for all time thereafter.

Similarly, when I, as a monster, acquire a character class, I improve according to the class, not my type. If I gain a racial hit die, though, I improve according to the type, not my class. The clarification applies to the improvement resulting from the acquisition of a character class, not to any and all improvements that occur subsequent to said acquisition regardless of their nature.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

So you're arguing that once a Dragon takes a level of Sorcerer, it can no longer age?

Good catch, until you look closer.

With the rules as written, that's correct (seems at first like an odd result, doesn't it?).

But... dragons do not advance by class. Their advancement is specified as being by age category not by class (look at the entry for any dragon).

You could run a dragon under the "Monsters as Races" rules, but that's not generally recommended by the rules

"Creatures ... who are so different from other PCs that they disrupt the campaign should not be used. Some creatures have strange innate abilities or great physical power, and thus are questionable at best as characters (except in high-level campaigns)."