Inspire Greatness -- Bonus Hit Dice?

[Artoomis]

This does not look to be Negatable.

I will try with an Example I just found though!

The Dungeon Master's Guide should discuss Terms as they relate to both Player Characters and Non Player Characters. When discussing Negative Levels the Dungeon Master's Guide refers only to Levels. When talking about the Condition of being Energy Drained it talks about Levels and Hit Dice interchangeably. The description of the Condition Section talks about Characters as does the Special Abilities Section.

Does a Level 10 Character who is being Buffed by Inspire Greatness and who has 9 Negative Levels instantly die if they gain 1 more Negative Level?

Interesting.

Let's see...

Hmmm, if the negative levels were by spell effect, there is an excellent argument that he would not die until getting 12 total negative levels (an extra 2 to offset the bonus HD), since the HD explicity apply to spells.

I don't think the rules are prefectly clear here, but to avoid a weird result, I'd allow it to work the same way even if the negative levels were caused by creatures. Note that gaining negative levels from, say, a vampire, is "Su" - not a spell, but still a magical effect, so I'd allow the HD to count.

This could be considered a generous ruling, perhaps, but I would not want the results to be different between spell-caused negative-levels and creature-caused "Supernatural" negative levels. That would be too weird and, potentially, too hard to track (what if one had both sources of negative levels at once?!?)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why are we compelled to look in other sources?

Because there are rules governing hit dice to be found elsewhere.

Bold added by me, not to be disrespectful, but just to avoid repetition.

What makes you say that bonus hit dice are not 'actual' hit dice?

What makes you say that feats and ability scores are only based on 'normal' hit dice?

If that were so, then what happens, say, when gaining a second level in the class "acquired" one level ago?

You follow the rules in the Player's Handbook for gaining a level in a character class, since you're gaining a level in a character class.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

Because there are rules governing hit dice to be found elsewhere.

Not relevant rules.

Check the PHB (not SRD) for the three instances of bonus hit dice. Two of them explicitly refer to the Monster Manual. Inspire Courage does not. Everything necessary to interpret it is right in the PHB.

What makes you say that bonus hit dice are not 'actual' hit dice?

What makes you say that feats and ability scores are only based on 'normal' hit dice?

Normal hit dice don't go away 30 seconds after some dude stops singing.

Regular hit dice don't need a note saying that they "count as regular hit dice" in special situations.

Actual hit dice count against your ECL, and impact how much XP you get for an encounter.

(Also there's the skills, feats, base saves, etc.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Artoomis]

...
You follow the rules in the Player's Handbook for gaining a level in a character class, since you're gaining a level in a character class.

-Hyp.

Let's follow the logic about what the rules say about advancement/improvement, ignoring templates (as they are not relevant):

1. A PC normally advances using the rules in the PHB. That is, by class level.

2. A monster may be "improved" by either adding HD or class levels.

3. When increasing hit die to improve a monster, one uses the "Creature Improvement by Type" table.

4. But, the table says that "if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type." Thus, at least at the time it acquires a character class, it improves by type.

Now, what happens next?

Let's say the creature in question is a monster that improves by gaining a class level. What happens is either:

A. It advances by type because, at this time, it is not "acquiring a character class" (Obviously cannot be true)

or

B. It advances by class level because it previously "acquired a class level" so it improves according to its class, not its type.

I don't see how you can have any other choice, because one first has to go to the rules for improving a monster before one can end up in the PHB to look at class level advancement rules.

Since these are the only two possibilities, choice "B" is the only one that applies and thus the rules must be read that, after acquiring a character class, a creature advances by level (only). This, of course, makes perfect sense when taken in the context of only the MM and only thinking about advancing monsters to make them tougher, following only what is written in the monster's "advancement" line of the monster's entry.

Most monsters that can be advance by adding levels only advance by adding levels. For the very few that also can increase non-class level HD, one would simply add any extra HD first, and then the class levels.

No provision was made for adding HD (Racial HD is the right term, I think) after adding class levels.

We know from the above that one cannot use the "Creature Improvement by Type" table for racial HD added after Class Levels have been acquired, so what do we do when extra HD get added somehow? Why, we follow whatever rules are written in the same place that those "extra" or "bonus" HD are granted. We certainly do not go back to the "Creature Improvement by Type" table, because that's not allowed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Let's say the creature in question is a monster that improves by gaining a class level. What happens is either:

A. It advances by type because, at this time, it is not "acquiring a character class" (Obviously cannot be true)

or

B. It advances by class level because it previously "acquired a class level" so it improves according to its class, not its type.

"If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multiclass characters.

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it."

As a multiclass character, he can advance in any of his classes, or in a new class; his "monster class" is a favoured class, so by choosing this "monster class" in which to advance, he's advancing by type.

Check the PHB (not SRD) for the three instances of bonus hit dice. Two of them explicitly refer to the Monster Manual. Inspire Courage does not. Everything necessary to interpret it is right in the PHB.

I'm not only talking about instances of 'bonus hit dice', but also instances of 'hit dice', of which bonus hit dice are a subset... as shown by the text of Paladin and Druid.

Not everything pertinent to 'hit dice' is in the PHB.

Actual hit dice count against your ECL, and impact how much XP you get for an encounter.

What makes you think that for the duration of Inspire Greatness, your ECL is not increased by 2, since you have two more hit dice for that time?

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

"If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multiclass characters.

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it."

Again, out of context. The full rule is:

Starting Level of a Monster PC
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.

As a multiclass character, he can advance in any of his classes, or in a new class; his "monster class" is a favoured class, so by choosing this "monster class" in which to advance, he's advancing by type...-Hyp.

A normal Monster PC, if there such a thing as a "normal" monster PC, cannot advance in the "monster class" as no advancement is possible. See my previous post. To advance in the "monster class" would require using the table that, in turn, says it cannot be used.

However, even if we allow such prohibited advancement, it would not apply to single class characters who were not created from monsters. A normal PC has no "monster class" to advance.

One cannot assume that all rules for monster PCs apply to other PCs, and, further, even at that, if one gained a uncharacterized HD (as in Inspire Greatness), how would one know which "class" to advance? "Monster class" or some other class? Or, heaven forbid, choose each time.

 

[Nifft]

I'm not only talking about instances of 'bonus hit dice', but also instances of 'hit dice', of which bonus hit dice are a subset... as shown by the text of Paladin and Druid.

And when the relevant information is found in a source outside the PHB, that source is named... as show by the text of Paladin and Druid.

Everything relevant to Inspire Greatness is found in the PHB.

Since "hit dice" are well defined in the PHB, the burden is on you to show that something other than the words "hit dice" require consultation of a source outside the PHB.

What makes you think that for the duration of Inspire Greatness, your ECL is not increased by 2, since you have two more hit dice for that time?

("Begging the question", "NO U", etc.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Elethiomel]

Since "hit dice" are well defined in the PHB, the burden is on you to show that something other than the words "hit dice" require consultation of a source outside the PHB.

If that is the case, the PC wealth per level for PCs starting above level 1 chart in the DMG is also irrelevant to creating characters, since if you create a character there is nothing in the PHB that references anything else than the starting money chart at the beginning of the Equipment chapter.

 

[Nifft]

If that is the case, the PC wealth per level for PCs starting above level 1 chart in the DMG is also irrelevant to creating characters, since if you create a character there is nothing in the PHB that references anything else than the starting money chart at the beginning of the Equipment chapter.

Did you even crack open your PHB?

"Alternatively, your DM can assign average starting gold..." is right above that chart. The wealth by level guidelines are guidelines for the DM to help him assign wealth. (Also, of course, they're guidelines and not rules.)

However, I will agree with you on one point: the wealthy by level guidelines are indeed irrelevant for many PCs.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Elethiomel]

Did you even crack open your PHB?

I resent that. Yes. Yes, I did.

"Alternatively, your DM can assign average starting gold..." is right above that chart. The wealth by level guidelines are guidelines for the DM to help him assign wealth. (Also, of course, they're guidelines and not rules.)

It's still not a reference to the DMG.

However, I will agree with you on one point: the wealthy by level guidelines are indeed irrelevant for many PCs.

Just as the stats for what you gain when you gain a Humanoid Hit Dice as a Bonus Hit Die from Inspire Greatness is irrelevant for many PCs.