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Insubstantial Monsters Hit Points

Grazzt

Demon Lord
Is it just me, or did I miss the rule somewhere, it seems Insubstantial undead don't add their Con score to HP.

Frex: Phantom Warrior (MM pg 116), Level 4 Soldier, hp 40, Con 12

HP formula for soldier is 8 + Con + (level x 8).

Phantom Warrior should have 52 hp (8 + 12 + [4 * 8]).

Same thing applies to the Wraith, Spectre, Trap Haunt (well, it should have 54 hp without its Con).

The Wailing Ghost on the other hand seems to subtract twice its Con (should have 117 hp, has 91, Con 13)

I know the whole DM's Toolbox thing is guidelines and few monsters actually hit 100% on the formulas (esp defenses). Just didnt notice til now that not all HP follow the formula structure either.
 

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James McMurray

First Post
There is no equation for insubstantal hit points. They're given less than normal hp for their level, which is compensated for by taking half damage most of the time.

For that matter, there are no hard and fast equations for anything. The DM's Toolbox is a set of guidelines that give you a good base for creating and upgrading monsters, but you're expected to do what the designers do: eyeball the numbers it gives you and massage them to fit your concept.
 

mattdm

First Post
There is no equation for insubstantal hit points. They're given less than normal hp for their level, which is compensated for by taking half damage most of the time.

Which is to say, from a player's point of view (especially considering HP as a measure of morale and combat-readiness in addition to pure physical health/injury), insubstantial is exactly the same as not-insubstantial. Of course, insubstantial creatures also usually have phasing, but insubstantial in itself is a complication with no actual effect.
 

inkmonkeys

First Post
Which is to say, from a player's point of view (especially considering HP as a measure of morale and combat-readiness in addition to pure physical health/injury), insubstantial is exactly the same as not-insubstantial. Of course, insubstantial creatures also usually have phasing, but insubstantial in itself is a complication with no actual effect.

Only if you reduce the monster's hit points by exactly 50%, which isn't the case.
 

Kordeth

First Post
Which is to say, from a player's point of view (especially considering HP as a measure of morale and combat-readiness in addition to pure physical health/injury), insubstantial is exactly the same as not-insubstantial. Of course, insubstantial creatures also usually have phasing, but insubstantial in itself is a complication with no actual effect.

Except that a) halving damage is a powerful psychological effect, and b) when the players get hold of weapons that can cut through insubstantial enemies they feel like awesome tough guys.
 

keterys

First Post
It allows you to do things like the Inescapable Force feat that really _destroys_ insubstantial opponents. It's also important to note there is high variance. Sometimes it's Con, sometimes it's nothing at all, sometimes it's 2*level, etc.

Having just last night run a cleric specter for a module, the healing being full effect on top of insubstantial was a huge psychological hit for the players.

As a general suggestion, look at your insubstantial creature's powers and figure out how much you should lower its hp (if at all), rather than follow an exact formula.
 

Flazzy

First Post
Monsters with substantial or regeneration seem to be based on the formula of (level+1) X (role HP -2) + Con, so for example
wraith (5+1) X (lurker 6-2) + 13 Con = 37
dread wraith (25+1) X (lurker 6-2) + 20 con = 124
wailing ghost (12+1) X (controller 8-2) + 13 con = 91
tormenting ghost (21+1) X (controller 8-2) + 20 con = 152
voidsoul spectre (23+1) X (lurker 6-2) + 19 con = 115
troll (9+1) X (brute 10-2) +20 con = 100
war troll (14+1) X (soldier 8-2) + 20 con = 110

However, some monsters seem to be fudged a bit
phantom warrior (4+1) X (soldier 8-2) + 12 con = 42 (not 40)
trap haunt (8+1) X (lurker 6-2) + 14 con = 50 (not 52)
fell troll [(20+1) X (brute 10-2) + 27 con] X 2 elite = 390 (not 360)
 


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