D&D 5E Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 18 Sorcerer

[FormerlyHemlock]

Could you help me with that? I suck at coding tables and your experiences are more standard than mine.

I'm just going off of memory here when I say that 115 = college graduate and 130 = PhD, and of course it really depends upon which IQ scale you're using and what its standard deviation is. A quick Google search says that: https://www.google.com/search?q=ave...hrome.0.0l2.3424j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

WAIS Mean IQ Educational Equivalent
125 Mean of persons receiving Ph.D. and M.D. degrees
115 Mean of college graduates
105 Mean of high school graduates
100 Average for total population

WAIS has a standard deviation of 15, so we're looking for results at +.33 SD, +1 SD, and +1.67 SD on the 3d6 bell curve. (I'm not sure that 3d6 bell curve is the right way to model D&D NPC populations, but let's go with it for now.)

3d6 isn't really a bell curve strictly speaking, but we'll pretend it approximates one. Its variance is 8.75, and its standard deviation is 2.96. (FYI, the variance on 4d6 drop lowest is 11.15, SD 3.34.) Let's just call that 3 Int points to the SD.

Put that together with our IQ/SD stats above gleaned from Google, and we've got:

Average person is right at the mean (Int 10-11)
High school graduate is 0.33 SD above the mean (Int 11-12)
College graduate is a full SD above the mean (Int 13-14)
Person with an an MD or PhD is 1.67 SD above the mean (Int 15-16)

Bear in mind that "high school graduate" probably includes "college graduates" and "MDs/PhDs"--that's probably not quite the right average for someone who is strictly a high school graduate and nothing else. Still, the numbers above should give you some ballpark ideas. The Int 8 Sorcerer is the guy who couldn't cut it in the 8th grade and DEFINITELY never really understood anything in high school except PE. If he graduated at all it was probably by copying off other people's papers, relying on his Cha 18 and total absence of ethical scruples.

 

[aco175]

Where did I read that classifying low intelligence broke into 3 groups. I forget if moron was below imbecile or the other way around, but I remember that idiot was the lowest IQ. The chart gave ages for reference. An Idiot was similar to a baby where he could not get along by himself, while a moron was similar to a 4 year-old.

 

[Hriston]

Well, I think I'm a smart bunny or something so I wanted to see how much Int would be in IQ. IQ is a gaussian index that starts with 100 on the average of the population and adds/lowers 15 at each standard deviation. Since D&D people live on a 3d6 scale, that average is 10.5, and the SDs below 100 are at 8, between 5-6 and in the middle of 4, the SDs higher than 100 are at 13, between 15-16 and in the middle of 17. So in an approximate (because obviously I don't remember how to use a gaussian table)we have

Score IQ Rounded Level
3 40 40 Limit of what can be measured
4 51 50 Moderately Impaired
5 61 60 Mildly impaired
6 70 70 Inferior
7 78 80 Low Average
8 85 85 Low Average
9 91 90 Average
10 96 95 Average
11 104 105 Average
12 109 110 Average
13 115 115 High Average
14 122 120 High Average
15 130 130 Superior
16 139 140 Gifted
17 149 150 Very gifted
18 160 160 Limit of what can be measured

What do you think now [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]? (Ok back to the kitchen it is)

Here's a similar table I created for another thread a little over a year ago. It compares the 3d6 method of stat generation used in the original D&D (1974) with the "averaging dice" method used for generating the stats of "general characters", i.e. commoners, introduced in the AD&D DMG (1979). The range of IQ scores that each method would produce for members of the general population is highlighted in green.

Intelligence	IQ if using 3d6	IQ if using 3 avg d6
1	52	14
2	57	23
3	62	32
4	67	41
5	72	50
6	77	59
7	82	68
8	87	77
9	92	86
10	97	95
11	103	105
12	108	114
13	113	123
14	118	132
15	123	141
16	128	150
17	133	159
18	138	168
19	143	177
20	148	186
21	153	195
22	158	204
23	163	213
24	168	222
25	173	231
26	179	240
27	184	249
28	189	258
29	194	267
30	199	276

 

[MoonSong]

Here's a similar table I created for another thread a little over a year ago. It compares the 3d6 method of stat generation used in the original D&D (1974) with the "averaging dice" method used for generating the stats of "general characters", i.e. commoners, introduced in the AD&D DMG (1979). The range of IQ scores that each method would produce for members of the general population is highlighted in green.

Intelligence	IQ if using 3d6	IQ if using 3 avg d6
1	52	14
2	57	23
3	62	32
4	67	41
5	72	50
6	77	59
7	82	68
8	87	77
9	92	86
10	97	95
11	103	105
12	108	114
13	113	123
14	118	132
15	123	141
16	128	150
17	133	159
18	138	168
19	143	177
20	148	186
21	153	195
22	158	204
23	163	213
24	168	222
25	173	231
26	179	240
27	184	249
28	189	258
29	194	267
30	199	276

What is this average dice method you speak about? (Never read the Ad&D dmg)?

What was your method for calculating IQs? I checked the frequency of each result under 3d6 and then counted the percentage in the curve for all the standard deviation points (34.3%, 47.5%, 48.5%) each of these is 15 IQ points below the previous point, then filled in the blanks proportionally. (though I should have used a gaussian table to fill in those blanks, but I don't remember how to use it)

 

[MoonSong]

I'm just going off of memory here when I say that 115 = college graduate and 130 = PhD, and of course it really depends upon which IQ scale you're using and what its standard deviation is. A quick Google search says that: https://www.google.com/search?q=ave...hrome.0.0l2.3424j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

WAIS Mean IQ Educational Equivalent
125 Mean of persons receiving Ph.D. and M.D. degrees
115 Mean of college graduates
105 Mean of high school graduates
100 Average for total population

WAIS has a standard deviation of 15, so we're looking for results at +.33 SD, +1 SD, and +1.67 SD on the 3d6 bell curve. (I'm not sure that 3d6 bell curve is the right way to model D&D NPC populations, but let's go with it for now.)

3d6 isn't really a bell curve strictly speaking, but we'll pretend it approximates one. Its variance is 8.75, and its standard deviation is 2.96. (FYI, the variance on 4d6 drop lowest is 11.15, SD 3.34.) Let's just call that 3 Int points to the SD.

Put that together with our IQ/SD stats above gleaned from Google, and we've got:

Average person is right at the mean (Int 10-11)
High school graduate is 0.33 SD above the mean (Int 11-12)
College graduate is a full SD above the mean (Int 13-14)
Person with an an MD or PhD is 1.67 SD above the mean (Int 15-16)

Bear in mind that "high school graduate" probably includes "college graduates" and "MDs/PhDs"--that's probably not quite the right average for someone who is strictly a high school graduate and nothing else. Still, the numbers above should give you some ballpark ideas. The Int 8 Sorcerer is the guy who couldn't cut it in the 8th grade and DEFINITELY never really understood anything in high school except PE. If he graduated at all it was probably by copying off other people's papers, relying on his Cha 18 and total absence of ethical scruples.

Well, this is my understanding of Int scores
Int Meaning
0 Brain dead
1 As smart as brainless animal
2 As smart as dumb animal
3 Ralph Wiggum
4 As smart as a 4-year old
5 As smart as a 9-year old
6 Gumball's Dad/Peter Griffin
7 didn't finish elementary school
8 likely to drop out from high school /Later Homer Simpson
9 graduated from a run of the mill high school
10 made it into a good high school (In my country you have to compete to get into high school, and the good ones reject like 80% of the applicants)
11 made it into a challenging pre-engineering high school
12 made it into and dropped out of the most elite and challenging pre-engineering high school, then graduated from any other high school with honors and without breaking a sweat. (That school is hell and twice as hard as college, a good college even)
13 graduated from the ME&CP-EHS (But suffered to do it)
14 graduated from the ME&CP-EHS without failing a single subject
15 graduated from the ME&CP-EHS with honors
16 graduated from the ME&CP-EHS with honors and without losing sleep
17 Most elite scientists
18 Einstein

 

[Hriston]

What is this average dice method you speak about? (Never read the Ad&D dmg)?

An averaging die is a d6 which produces the set of numbers {2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5}, or you can just use a regular d6 and read 1's as 3's and 6's as 4's. The method recommended is to roll three averaging dice for the stats of non-exceptional NPCs. The result is an array very close to 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.

What was your method for calculating IQs? I checked the frequency of each result under 3d6 and then counted the percentage in the curve for all the standard deviation points (34.3%, 47.5%, 48.5%) each of these is 15 IQ points below the previous point, then filled in the blanks proportionally. (though I should have used a gaussian table to fill in those blanks, but I don't remember how to use it)

I used this formula: IQ=100+(Int-10.5)(15/s) where s is the standard deviation of the set of generated values. The standard deviation of 3d6 is about 2.96 whereas the standard deviation of 3 averaging d6 is about 1.66. Like you, I'm using the definition of IQ that gives it a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 15.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Where did I read that classifying low intelligence broke into 3 groups. I forget if moron was below imbecile or the other way around, but I remember that idiot was the lowest IQ. The chart gave ages for reference. An Idiot was similar to a baby where he could not get along by himself, while a moron was similar to a 4 year-old.

As I recall, that came from old diagnostic guides. Like pre-1950s.

 

[MoonSong]

An averaging die is a d6 which produces the set of numbers {2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5}, or you can just use a regular d6 and read 1's as 3's and 6's as 4's. The method recommended is to roll three averaging dice for the stats of non-exceptional NPCs. The result is an array very close to 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.




I used this formula: IQ=100+(Int-10.5)(15/s) where s is the standard deviation of the set of generated values. The standard deviation of 3d6 is about 2.96 whereas the standard deviation of 3 averaging d6 is about 1.66. Like you, I'm using the definition of IQ that gives it a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 15.

I see. Wow, it is an interesting method of npc generation.

I see now why our results are that different. Your formula is linear, matching in the center but not accelerating towards the edges. IQ is a normal distribution on purpose, with small variation near the center but it drops or grows faster and faster as you get further away from the center. A full percentile near the center might only raise your IQ by half a point, but on the edges a tenth of a thousandth of a percentile raises your IQ by the dozen if not by the hundreds. That is why IQ values beyond 160 are ridiculous the difference between IQ 200 and IQ 180 is quite quite small, way smaller than what can possibly be measured with any accuracy.

 

[Hriston]

I see. Wow, it is an interesting method of npc generation.

I like to use it for any non-classed NPCs that need stats. It keeps the variability of 3d6 at bay.

I see now why our results are that different. Your formula is linear, matching in the center but not accelerating towards the edges. IQ is a normal distribution on purpose, with small variation near the center but it drops or grows faster and faster as you get further away from the center. A full percentile near the center might only raise your IQ by half a point, but on the edges a tenth of a thousandth of a percentile raises your IQ by the dozen if not by the hundreds. That is why IQ values beyond 160 are ridiculous the difference between IQ 200 and IQ 180 is quite quite small, way smaller than what can possibly be measured with any accuracy.

It's been over a year since I thought through this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what my formula does is match a particular INT score with the IQ score that has the same probability of appearing in the population. The extreme IQ scores that appear on my table are 'fantasy' IQ's that are as improbable in the real world as it would be to roll the equivalent INT score with the generation methods given, which is to say practically zero.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Wow, lots of tables and numbers in their thread. Personally, I try not to apply real-world numbers to games (especially physics) because that way madness lies.

When I think of INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 18, I think of characters that Owen Wilson typically plays, for example Hansel in Zoolander. A nice, personable, social character, but a little dumber than average.

Not a lot dumber - that would be Derek Zoolander (played by Ben Stiller) at INT 6.