Intelligent Blademaster with Javelin?

[elecgraystone]

No, you aren't. You're forbidden from using it as a melee weapon.

-Hyp.

Actually you ARE using it as a melee weapon. A melee weapon with the heavy thrown ability. If it stops being a melee weapon at any point in it's ranged attack, it loses it's ability to be used in ranged combat. It HAS to stay a melee weapon at all times.

 

[Ibixat]

So, according to you, tags go by object, regardless of method of use. It follows that a javelin is, always, a melee weapon. Note that under that set of rules, 1 lb objects (the only weight for thrown improvised weapons), despite having an entry in a melee weapon table, cannot be used as improvised melee weapons because they are also improvised ranged weapons. Further note that (extremely) hypothetical weapons (maybe there are some in the AV, I rather doubt it) with worse base state lines than the improvised weapons but with really good tags could then be used as improvised weapons while keeping the good tags.

Of course, for the case of melee weapons with light/heavy thrown tags, you get the more permissive case of weapons with a combined melee/thrown weapon-table entry, so you can't argue your way out of Int. Blademaster+thrown javelin by saying "an improvised weapon doesn't count as the non-improvised use and vice-versa because they are separate weapon table entries".

(btw, I was wrong on 2-handed imp. melee weapons, the weight range s 6-12)

If an object qualifies for a improvised weapon regardless of it's other properties it can be used as such, there is no stipulation that the object must meet other than it's weight requirements... SO a bag of feathers weighing 1 pound is both an improvised melee weapon AND an improvised ranged weapon, I think I'm going to make a character that fights with a bag of feathers now...A 10 pound bag of feathers, rar improvised 2 hander!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually you ARE using it as a melee weapon.

You were using it as a melee weapon, until you threw it.

A melee weapon with the heavy thrown ability. If it stops being a melee weapon at any point in it's ranged attack, it loses it's ability to be used in ranged combat.

No, it doesn't. It has the ability to be used in ranged combat because it counts as a ranged weapon. Once it stops being a ranged weapon, then it will be a melee weapon again, and can be thrown another time (whereupon it starts being a ranged weapon).

It HAS to stay a melee weapon at all times.

Not while it's a ranged weapon. Since it's counting as a ranged weapon, it follows the rules for ranged weapons. As long as it is in the 'when thrown' state, it's counting as a ranged weapon, and ranged weapons don't have to be melee weapons with the heavy thrown property to remain ranged weapons.

Once it's no longer in the 'when thrown' state, it's not counting as a ranged weapon any more, at which point it does have to be a melee weapon with the heavy thrown property if it ever want to be a ranged weapon again.

-Hyp.

 

[elecgraystone]

Could you please point out where any of that is spelled out in the rules Hypersmurf? I fail to see where is states that weapons lose abilities when being 'counted' as another. Where does it say that 'counted as a ranged weapon' made it stop being a melee weapon? A versatile weapon used in two hands is still a one handed weapon no matter how you use it. A thrown javelin is still a melee weapon even though you used it in a ranged attack. In fact it looks like the opposite is true. If it stops being a melee weapon, it can't have the heavy thrown ability and can't be used in ranged combat.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where does it say that 'counted as a ranged weapon' made it stop being a melee weapon?

While it's a ranged weapon, it may not be used as a melee weapon.

A versatile weapon used in two hands is still a one handed weapon no matter how you use it.

Per p217, I agree. Per p215, I don't - if it is used as a two-handed weapon, then the rule that a weapon is either a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon will prevent it being a one-handed weapon at the same time.

-Hyp.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Could you please point out where any of that is spelled out in the rules Hypersmurf? I fail to see where is states that weapons lose abilities when being 'counted' as another. Where does it say that 'counted as a ranged weapon' made it stop being a melee weapon? A versatile weapon used in two hands is still a one handed weapon no matter how you use it. A thrown javelin is still a melee weapon even though you used it in a ranged attack.

The burden of proof is on you here. Specific trumps general, remember? The general says that all melee weapons count as melee weapons. The specific rule says that thrown weapons count as ranged weapons for purposes of ranged attacks. There is no specific rule saying that they also retain their status as a melee weapon while being used in a ranged attack, therefore they are ranged.

Despite repeated requests you have shown absolutely no rule which says that it retains it's melee status when it is actually thrown. The lack of rule saying it doesn't is not the same as a rule saying it does. Since there is no rule that says this, the specific rule of "it counts as a ranged weapon when thrown" trumps the general rule of it being a melee weapon. While it's thrown that is. For a mundane weapon it's expended, but for a magic weapon it will return and then resume it's status as a melee weapon...until it is thrown again.

This applies for numerous other things too. Hammer Rhythm, for example? By your reading of the rules all misses with Throwing Hammers would deal Con damage. It only says "melee attack", not "melee basic or power with melee keyword". Was it the designers intention that every instance of a power or feat affecting a melee weapon would work for thrown weapons? Add to that every instance of a power or feat that affects a ranged weapon. Then stack them when you throw it? This is ridiculous. There's no RAW to support it, and no evidence of it being RAI either, since it would give an unprecedented number of bonuses and such to a single weapon group.

 

[Drudenfusz]

I will try it with a different approach, if I would use the Javelin with the Level 1 Daily Power Whirling Blade from the swordmage all will be fine (despite the Name of the Power I can use it with any melee weapon). It's a ranged attack I can use only with a melee weapon, I can do this without the feat. And now why should it not work the same way with the Intelligent Blademaster feat for the Javelin in a basic Attack (that's maybe the reason why it's worded like it is)?

 

[elecgraystone]

The burden of proof is on you here. Specific trumps general, remember?

It's the other way around I'm afraid. It's a melee weapon being uses as a ranged weapon and Hypersmurf is saying that it stops being a melee weapon. I'm asking were he got this. It's his burden to point out when a melee weapon stops being a melee weapon. By default, it's a melee weapon.

Despite repeated requests you have shown absolutely no rule which says that it retains it's melee status when it is actually thrown.

Why would I have it. It's right in the book. It's a melee weapon. It's listed under melee weapons. If it somehow ever stops being a melee weapon it should be noted somewhere in the rules. The burden is on the other side of the argument saying that it DOESN'T stay what it is. A melee weapon.

While it's a ranged weapon, it may not be used as a melee weapon.

That's not the question. The question is 'is it still a melee weapon' and it is. All the the feat requires is that the weapon be a melee weapon and it be used for a basic attack. A melee weapon being used as a ranged weapon is still a melee weapon unless you have a rule somewhere that says it isn't.

 

[Kraydak]

No, you aren't. You're forbidden from using it as a melee weapon.

Right. But if he had the power "Non-swords cannot be used as melee weapons within 50 feet", then your axe could not satisfy any "need a melee weapon" requirement.

Sure. But under the alternative power above, you wouldn't, because in order to benefit from TWF and TWD, you'd need to be wielding a melee weapon... and the axe cannot be used as a melee weapon within 50 feet of Sword God Beta.

-Hyp.

Doesn't matter. Even if it can't be used as a melee weapon, it still *is* a melee weapon. Similarly, if someone has an attack that blows up melee weapons for AoE damage, and I'm in in Sword God Beta's AoE, my axe can still go boom.

In the javelin case, the only way to remove the melee-weaponness bit is by doing something drastic enough to remove it from the table of melee weapons (and boosting/reducing its weight out of the improvised categories if you want to tie things to the object instead of the table entry, which I strongly advise against). As that is where it is picking up the "heavy thrown" property, you then can't throw it. Which is the line of argument that says that it must stay a melee weapon:
if it EVER stops being a melee weapon, then the javelin entry in the simple melee weapons, 1-handed ceases to apply, so the "heavy thrown" goes away, and you can't throw it.

Now, if the javelin had two different entries, one in the melee table (without heavy thrown) and one in the ranged table (with heavy thrown), THEN we would be arguing about whether more than one table entry can apply at the same time. And life would be more complicated.

To rephrase a last time:
Is there anywhere in the rules that it says that to be a melee weapon, you need to be able to make a melee attack with it? I sure hope not, because there are circumstances where you may be unable to make a melee attack with a weapon yet it should still count as a melee weapon, but such a rule would give you the argument.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The question is 'is it still a melee weapon' and it is.

But if you want to benefit from a feat that says "make a basic attack with a melee weapon", you must be using a melee weapon to make a basic attack.

And you aren't, because the javelin can't be used as a melee weapon right now.

-Hyp.