Intelligent Blademaster with Javelin?

[Drudenfusz]

Oh god guys we are all arguing semantics here... shouldn't be better to try and figure out "the spirit of the rule" here? Make a judgment call? In my opinion, even if it would not really be unbalanced, Intelligent "Blademaster" shouldn't apply to javelin throwing... Using intelligence to figure how to hit vital or more vulnerable spots in a melee so that even weak blows do mucho damage? Fits! Intelligently flinging javelins? Feels kind of a stretch here...

The name of feats have no meaning, the feat works with all melee weapons...

If one accepts the FAQ ruling that Weapon Focus applies to an implement as correct, then I agree - you can attack with a melee weapon without without using it as a melee weapon, and thus a thrown javelin remains a melee weapon for the purpose of triggering Intelligent Blademaster.

Perfect (I was afraid this discussion will continue until all eternity).

 

[Ibixat]

A spiked shield is a good example of something being 2 things at once, it's both a shield and a light blade, it never ceases to be both of those at once
.

The Tratnyr is also more fun the the javelin, can we use that one for examples from now on, becaues I like throwing versatile into the mix of what it can do.

The Double sword is the ultimate in being multiple things at once, not only is it 2 "long swords" that tack on defensive and off hand but throws in light blade for the heck of it.

Now if that weapon can be a Heavy Blade and Light Blade at once and you can accept that, why can't you accept an item being both a melee and ragned weapon, at the same time.

 

[Drudenfusz]

Is there anybody who will ask this question for the FAQ, I would do it myself but the Wizards webpage hates me, I don't get any e-mail address...

 

[Wolf88]

The name of feats have no meaning, the feat works with all melee weapons...

t'was not about the name but about the whole idea... i would really want to hear an official answer to that tho...

 

[elecgraystone]

If you're just going to make up rules then there's no point in even having a discussion. And yes, you're making up rules. "Weapons in all four categories are further categorized as melee weapons, which you use to attack foes within reach of the weapon" is the definition of a melee weapon. Using a weapon to attack foes beyond the reach of a weapon means it's not a melee weapon by the very definition given of what a melee weapon is. To say anything otherwise is simply making up a rule. This is the only instance I've seen that defines what a melee weapon is, nowhere else does it say anything like what you claim.

General rule: "melee weapons, which you use to attack foes within reach of the weapon"
Specific rule: Thrown weapon ability: the melee weapon can be used 'as a ranged weapon' (note it doesn't say it IS a ranged weapon, just used as one)
Specifics beat generalities.
The thrown weapon ability gives an exception that allows a melee weapon to be use in a ranged attack. No new or made up rules here, you are just ignoring that 4E is exception based.

If one accepts the FAQ ruling that Weapon Focus applies to an implement as correct, then I agree - you can attack with a melee weapon without without using it as a melee weapon, and thus a thrown javelin remains a melee weapon for the purpose of triggering Intelligent Blademaster.

Woot! One more convert. Sigh... If only this was a debate about something that would ever come up in a game I'm in...

 

[Doctor Proctor]

General rule: "melee weapons, which you use to attack foes within reach of the weapon"
Specific rule: Thrown weapon ability: the melee weapon can be used 'as a ranged weapon' (note it doesn't say it IS a ranged weapon, just used as one)
Specifics beat generalities.
The thrown weapon ability gives an exception that allows a melee weapon to be use in a ranged attack. No new or made up rules here, you are just ignoring that 4E is exception based.

It doesn't say "used as", it says "counts as". Effectively, that is saying that it's ranged weapon for the purposes of a thrown attack. This is the point of that line. You can't use a melee weapon as part of a ranged attack, it's impossible. The thrown property grants an exception that the melee weapon will count as a ranged weapon for the purposes of the ranged attack. Hence, it's a ranged weapon while in flight.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You can't use a melee weapon as part of a ranged attack, it's impossible.

You can't use the javelin as a melee weapon.

However, the precedent DracoSuave pointed out is the Wizard of the Spiral Tower ruling in the FAQ.

The question is to the effect of "When a WotST uses a longsword as an implement, can he apply his Weapon Focus feat to the damage of the attack?", and the answer is "Yes".

The WotST is not using the longsword as a weapon; he is using it as an implement. However, the longsword is a weapon. Therefore, the feat, which adds to damage rolls with his chosen weapon group, applies, even though he is not using the longsword as a weapon.

The javelin is a melee weapon; while it is being thrown, it may not be used as a melee weapon. Intelligent Blademaster doesn't care if you are using it as a melee weapon, just as Weapon Focus doesn't care if the WotST is using the longsword as a weapon; Intelligent Blademaster only cares if it is a melee weapon.

While being thrown, the javelin is a melee weapon that may not be used as a melee weapon, and it is also (effectively) a ranged weapon.

In the absence of this FAQ ruling - for example, if the FAQ changes to say that Weapon Focus only applies to damage rolls when you are using your weapon as a weapon, or if you hold the FAQ ruling to be incorrect - I think the weight of support is in favour of Intelligent Blademaster being inapplicable to a thrown javelin. But if one accepts the FAQ ruling as valid, then it follows that Intelligent Blademaster applies.

-Hyp.

 

[elecgraystone]

It doesn't say "used as", it says "counts as". Effectively, that is saying that it's ranged weapon for the purposes of a thrown attack. This is the point of that line. You can't use a melee weapon as part of a ranged attack, it's impossible. The thrown property grants an exception that the melee weapon will count as a ranged weapon for the purposes of the ranged attack. Hence, it's a ranged weapon while in flight.

My bad, counts as. No one is saying it's being use as a melee weapon when being used in a ranged attack. However it IS a melee weapons being used in a ranged attack. Nothing says that a ranged attack requires a ranged weapon.

Look at what you said "counts as" not "IS a ranged weapon for ranged attacks." If that was the case you'd see thrown weapons listed on the chart of ranged weapons. You don't because a javelin doesn't 'mystically' change into a ranged weapon the instant it leaves your hand. Even if it were to do this, why would it stop being a melee weapon?

Let's put this another way. I run over someone with my car. I've effectively used my car as a weapon. Did it stop being a car when I used it as a weapon? No, it was always a car. If I put a longsword in a catapult and fire it, when does stop being a one handed weapon? If I hit someone with the hilt of my sword, when does it stop being a sword? If I use a crossbow as a paperweight, when does it stop being a ranged weapon?

Bottom line why does using something differently alter what the weapon is?

 

[DracoSuave]

So, I took liberty of sending it to Custhelp.

The custhelp agent said that it only works with BMA. I pointed out that's not what the feat said. The custhelp agent kindly replied:

Thank you for pointing this out. It is the Feats intent, that it only be used with Basic Melee attacks. I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update or FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide. The DM is always the final arbiter on how they want their campaign to run. Have fun!

So, while as written it javelins can be thrown with Intellegence, the -intent- is otherwise, and that it may or may not likely find itself updated.

That said, I'm absolutely convinced now that Custhelp has a form response where they hit a button and

'I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update or FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide. The DM is always the final arbiter on how they want their campaign to run. Have fun!'

gets copypasted onto the letter. (that was from my questions regarding spellscarred implements [non-existant] and pact hammers adding warlock damage [redundant])

 

[Drudenfusz]

'I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update or FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide. The DM is always the final arbiter on how they want their campaign to run. Have fun!'

I hope that the game's developers see no harm in it at allow the use with the Javelin. But still I ask to myself why they haven't written Basic Melee Attack in the first place, if the intention was nothing else...