Interaction between Essassin and a Familiar

twilsemail

Visitor
I'm curious how the boards at large view the interaction of the Essassin's daily poisons (D394) and the Clockwork Scorpion from D377's Familiars of Eberron. Here are the relevant quotes:

D394 said:
Only you can use your assassin poisons, and you are immune to the effects of the ones you create.
D377 said:
Constant Benefit: The clockwork scorpion contains a small reservoir that can store 1 dose of a poison or alchemical oil that you can apply to a weapon. You can refill it during a rest.
D377 said:
Active Benefit: Once per encounter, when you or an ally hits an enemy adjacent to the clockwork scorpion with a weapon attack, that attack benefits from the effect of the stored substance, which is consumed.
I think that the way these elements would interaction means that you could apply your Essassin poison where you wish, if you've invested two feats in it. Thoughts, ENWorlders?
 

Incenjucar

Visitor
I'm curious how the boards at large view the interaction of the Essassin's daily poisons (D394) and the Clockwork Scorpion from D377's Familiars of Eberron. Here are the relevant quotes:

I think that the way these elements would interaction means that you could apply your Essassin poison where you wish, if you've invested two feats in it. Thoughts, ENWorlders?


The DM may allow it, but I think the "Only you can use" part precludes the clockwork scorpion from using it.
 

moxcamel

Explorer
The DM may allow it, but I think the "Only you can use" part precludes the clockwork scorpion from using it.
This is my initial thought also. I'm not familiar with Familiars of Eberron, is this specifically an Assassin's familiar? If so, I could see treating the familiar as something the Assassin can "use," and might allow it.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
The DM may allow it, but I think the "Only you can use" part precludes the clockwork scorpion from using it.
But your familiar, summons, shaman spirit, etc. are always an extension of you for things like this. If you have a feat that gives you a bonus to defenses, your familiar's defenses improve as well. Those that attack do so with your attack bonus, including your implement that you are wielding.

I wouldn't allow the scorpion to add an Essassin poison to another's attack because of the wording, but I would to your own attack.
 

Incenjucar

Visitor
But your familiar, summons, shaman spirit, etc. are always an extension of you for things like this. If you have a feat that gives you a bonus to defenses, your familiar's defenses improve as well. Those that attack do so with your attack bonus, including your implement that you are wielding.
I don't agree with the bolded. Characters have very limited actions they can do through non-character entities, and they are all explicitly stated. These creatures don't even have access to feat-granted bonuses unless they're constants.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Am I missing some in-joke on "Essassin" or are you just really bad at typing?

I hope this isn't one of those "PEACH" style imports from the WotC boards, which I aim lasers of fiery burny death at.
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
I'd need the text of the Familiar rules to say if it's RAW-approved, but, as a DM, I'd personally permit it.
I would also. especially given that it would take two feats in order to get that ability(MC to an Arcane class, then the Familiar feat). There are more effective ways to use those feats, from a mechanical perspective, so I would see this as being more of a flavour thing.
 

chitzk0i

Visitor
'Essassin' is short for the Essentials-style Executioner Assassin.

I think that if one of my players was going to spend 2 feats on this, I'd let it work.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
The thing is, if Familiars work kind of like a lot of summoning powers (using your stats to attack with) then it totally works. If you summon a thing that deals fire damage, and you have a feat that improves fire damage, then your feat improves your summon's fire damage. If you gain a +1 to hit with implement powers, and your summoning spell is an implement power, your summons gain +1 to hit with their attacks as well. Etc. So if familiars work that way, they are basically an extension of yourself, so the poisons you can use can be used through them (probably even if they weren't a clockwork scorpion).

If familiars use their own attack stats, however, that might not work so well.

I don't have the familiar rules in front of me ATM, though I am not sure why they wouldn't use the same rules that you use for a summoning effect.
 

Incenjucar

Visitor
It should be kept in mind that these poisons specifically must be applied to a weapon. At no point is a summoned monster a weapon.
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
It should be kept in mind that these poisons specifically must be applied to a weapon. At no point is a summoned monster a weapon.
This is true, but the familiar in question specifically states that it can contain one dose of a poison or alchemical oil, that can be applied to a weapon. Once per encounter, when the master of the familiar or an ally is adjacent to the scorpion (in active mode) and hits an opponent with a weapon attack, the attack can benefit from the stored substance.
 

Incenjucar

Visitor
This is true, but the familiar in question specifically states that it can contain one dose of a poison or alchemical oil, that can be applied to a weapon. Once per encounter, when the master of the familiar or an ally is adjacent to the scorpion (in active mode) and hits an opponent with a weapon attack, the attack can benefit from the stored substance.
At best, the assassin could apply it to its own weapon. An ally wouldn't be able to use it.
 

Damon_Tor

Visitor
There are RAW justifications either way, so it's unclear. RAI, it's unlikely this combo was ever considered by the developers of the Executioner.

So it's up to the DM.

Q. Is it imbalanced?
A. No. There's little to no mechanical benefit to doing this, as opposed to applying the poison yourself. It also costs two feats, one of which is your multiclass feat, and no arcane multiclass feats are particularly good for an Executioner except for the Warlock one that gives you one use of their curse... and that one is a pain to qualify for anyway, and others (rogue, ranger, avenger) are superior.

Q. Is it cool?
A. Kinda, I guess. Robot scorpion to poison people? Kinda fun.

So why not?
 

Incenjucar

Visitor
I'm not familiar enough with the Essassin to judge the balance of this... if poisons can only be applied once per encounter then this could double how often the character uses an encounter power... I'd have to get DDI again to check, and to see whether it would actually matter.
 

Damon_Tor

Visitor
No, poisons are a daily resource, limited by dose: If the Executioner prepares 3 vials of poison for the day and puts one in his scorpion, he only has two left.

Again, there is zero mechanical advantage for doing this. It doesn't even help the executioner avoid "wasting" the poison, because (a) most of the poisons applicable in this context aren't expended on a miss anyway and (b) both builds of executioners have miss-proof means of applying their poisons via their dagger or blowgun.
 

twilsemail

Visitor
Am I missing some in-joke on "Essassin" or are you just really bad at typing?
As has been noted, Essassin is a general abbreviation for Essentials Assassin. I've seen it a few places now, including these boards.

I hope this isn't one of those "PEACH" style imports from the WotC boards, which I aim lasers of fiery burny death at.
Nah, I was just browsing for a flavorful familiar for an Assassin MCed into Warlock. While they're generally not worth the feat, I really like Familiars in general. I think they tend to add some personality to a PC along with a minor mechanical bump. While browsing, I found the Clockwork Scorpion and this question popped up.

Most questions here have been answered by others. I don't know that this working would be a major boon to the Assassin so much as a flavorful add to the encounter. It's something to think about. Thanks all.
 

Incenjucar

Visitor
No, poisons are a daily resource, limited by dose: If the Executioner prepares 3 vials of poison for the day and puts one in his scorpion, he only has two left.

Again, there is zero mechanical advantage for doing this. It doesn't even help the executioner avoid "wasting" the poison, because (a) most of the poisons applicable in this context aren't expended on a miss anyway and (b) both builds of executioners have miss-proof means of applying their poisons via their dagger or blowgun.
So long as the player isn't saving up an extra dose from a non-combat day, it's probably fine.
 

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