Interaction of True Resurrection and Reincarnation

[Gez]

The same thing happened in our group, too. We had a dwarven bard/fighter with 10 Con (8 before racial modification). Cruelly wounded by a Wyvern, he died (Wyvern venom is nasty, when you fail your 1-minute-later save, your Constitution decreases and your hp do too).

He was reincarnated (yay clerics with the Renewal domain!) as an elven girl. It was quite a shock for our bearded friend to change both of gender and of race at the same time.

Anyway, as an elf, he got a new Con score of 6. Do the math: Soon, we had the opportunity to test True Rezz on him. Well, her. She came back as the elf she now was. Reincarnation is renewing you into a new you.

Anyway, if one wanted to true rezz somebody who was reincarnated, I could allow it. But it would be the person prior to the reincarnation that would come -- in my example, it would have been the dwarven bard 3/fighter 4 that would have been true rezzed, not the elven bard 5/fighter 5... All the memories and experience aquired between the first body's death and the resurrection would be lost, as they're part of a being that is not resurrected.

 

[Thanee]

Anyway, if one wanted to true rezz somebody who was reincarnated, I could allow it. But it would be the person prior to the reincarnation that would come -- in my example, it would have been the dwarven bard 3/fighter 4 that would have been true rezzed, not the elven bard 5/fighter 5... All the memories and experience aquired between the first body's death and the resurrection would be lost, as they're part of a being that is not resurrected.

So, why did the reincarnated dwarf not start at 0 then?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Gez]

Because that's part of the spell's effect. He gets a whole new body, but keeps his experience and memories. Well, most of it, anyway -- there's still a level loss.

Resurrection, however, occurs differently. It brings a dead person back. The dead dwarf was level 7, the dead elf was level 10. If you want to bring back the dead dwarf, you bring back the level 7 dwarf.

 

[Thanee]

So, you are saying, that the reincarnated dwarf is not the same person as the dwarf before the reincarnation?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Gez]

Exactly.

For example, have your players fight a chaotic evil human necromancer. Then a dretch. Then a babau, then a glabrezu, then a balor (and the few intermediary steps)... Then a balor necromancer. Then Orcus the Demon Prince.

Ask them if they thought they battled the same person. Because they did.

Every time you gain (or lose) a level or change your species, you become a different person. It is especially true with Reincarnation, as you start a new life in a new body. (Resurrection lets you continue your previous life, that's why there's an age limit.)

 

[Scharlata]

[...] Every time you gain (or lose) a level or change your species, you become a different person. It is especially true with Reincarnation, as you start a new life in a new body. (Resurrection lets you continue your previous life, that's why there's an age limit.)

Hi!

That's an interesting point of view - that I don't really can share with you. Especially, since True Resurrection states that you don't lose a level by coming back from the dead. Further, it would make a real chaos or a boring bookkeeping if you would have to track (or lose track of) the whole progress a character experiences when levelling up.

I'd rather stick to the rules of the spells as written.


Thank y'all for your answers so far, btw.

Kind regards

 

[Gez]

You don't have to. This debate with Thanee was all started by that:

Anyway, if one wanted to true rezz somebody who was reincarnated, I could allow it. But it would be the person prior to the reincarnation that would come.

The default is still to resurrect the person as he was just before his latest death.

 

[Kelleris]

So, Gez, you're saying that there's a level 7 soul and a level 10 soul of the same person out there that the TR gets to pick between? Considering that it seems that the usual D&D conception is that your levels have roughly nothing to do with your body (it's all soul, baby!), that doesn't make any sense to me.

Consider spells like magic jar, that explicitly transfer souls. All of the levels and XP go along with the soul and leave nothing of interest behind in the body. Ditto for undead level-draining that is flavored as suppressing your life force - it's the negative energy, not any physical damage of any kind, that causes level loss.

There's only one soul here, and it's what has the levels. Any body you care to bring it back to will have exactly the same memories and XP as before, unless is takes a turn on the ol' wheel o' karma first. And that would be an effect on the soul; the old iteration would probably not be accessible, because the soul you're retrieving has changed. Likewise, if you somehow contrived to gain a few levels as a soul, and were then resurrected, you would carry those levels with you to your new body.

My vote is that the deceased gets to choose. I don't read TR as caring one way or the other whether it has to completely reconstitute a body or not, so just as someone can always refuse to be brought back from the afterlife, it seems fair that they could "tell" the TR how to bring them back. The cleric merely provides an opportunity for the dead soul to seize. I also like this reading because it puts the control over the character in the player's hands, which is by itself a good reason to rule this way.

 

[Ottergame]

My vote is human. IMHO, the spell should bring someone into the form they were BORN as, belief not playing a factor into it. If he was born human, a true rez spell should return them to their original human body.

As far as "wish or miracle can return blah blah blah", no one has yet pointed out that that is there for a STILL LIVING reincarnated person to have their form returned.

 

[Gez]

So, Gez, you're saying that there's a level 7 soul and a level 10 soul of the same person out there that the TR gets to pick between? Considering that it seems that the usual D&D conception is that your levels have roughly nothing to do with your body (it's all soul, baby!), that doesn't make any sense to me.

Sigh. Once again. The guy is resurrected as he was just before dying. If the player whines and wants to get his original form back, then he gets it, at the cost I said.

And if that doesn't make any sense to you, neither does the clone spell.

Clone
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: One clone
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, the original’s soul transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided the soul is free and willing to return). The original’s physical remains, should they still exist, become inert matter and cannot thereafter be restored to life. If the original has reached the end of its natural life span, any cloning attempt fails.
To create the duplicate, the character must have a piece of flesh taken from the original’s living body, with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch. The piece of flesh need not be fresh, but it must be kept from rotting. Once the spell is cast, the duplicate must be grown in a laboratory for 2d4 months.
When the clone is completed, if the original is dead, the original’s soul enters the clone. The clone has the personality, memories, skills, and levels the original had at the time the piece of flesh was taken.​

(Granted, this was modified in the revision, but still, I have precedent.)