D&D 4E Interesting Article on OGL and 4E

[Hussar]

Did you report them? That sort of behaviour is against board rules.

No I didn't and shame on me really. I should have and I missed the boat. My total and complete bad.

 

[Pramas]

I'm glad folks found the article of interest. For the record, I was in no way trying to impugn the honor of Necromancer Games. Tome of Horrors just made a convenient example, because the use of the OGL is required to legally do anything with the old D&D monsters in that book.

 

[Pramas]

With respect to Pramas, I think he's mistaken. The d20 publishers never really did modules. He pointed to Freeport and a couple of others. Compare that to the number of titles that weren't modules. SSS produced dozens of titles, with a grand total of three modules. Green Ronin's own module production is absolutely dwarfed by its other d20 products.

In the early days of d20 almost everyone started off with adventures because they were in demand and fairly easy to do. Here are just a few titles from my libary, all of which date from 2000 and 2001:

Atlas Games: Three Days of Kill, Thieves in the Forest, Belly of the Beast
Avalance Press: The Last Days of Constantinople
Fiery Dragon: NeMoren's Vault, Of Sound Mind
Green Ronin: Death in Freeport, Terror in Freeport, Madness in Freeport
Necromancer Games: Crucible of Freya, Demons and Devils
Nightshift Games: The Horror Beneath
Otherworld Creations: Into the Darkness
Paradigm Concepts: The Spear of Loghin, Blood Reign of Nishanpur, The Bloody Sands of Sicaris
Wicked Press: What's That Smell

What I said on my blog was this:

"There was indeed a wave of adventure products, led by Death in Freeport and Three Days to Kill. Soon third party companies started taking on bigger projects and expanding out into sourcebook territory."

So you are right that in the end there were more sourcebooks and setting books than modules, but it is not accurate to say that d20 publishers "never did modules." They did quite a lot of them in the early days of 3E and then again towards the end.

 

[delericho]

And, finally, we can see a meaning in having feats and powers named "Golden Wyvern Adept" and stuff like that. It's hard to defend a "Nature" skill as PI/Copyright, but if the trait's name is something not naturally attached to its function, it becomes much easier.

True that, but if you're producing support products for D&D (just not calling them that), then I don't think it matters. When writing up that BBEG for the adventure, just include "Golden Wyvern Adept" in his list of feats, don't explain what it does, and you're fine. When adding a drow to your module, just list the hit points. Then, put the note "Compatible with the Fourth Edition of the World's Most Popular RPG" on the back cover, and you're done. (I'll note that a great many OGL products use the equivalent statement for Third Edition to indicate compatibility, so it can be done.)

If you're not producing support products for D&D then you have a slightly different problem... but then the solution is a whole lot simpler, because you can make your game entirely self-contained, and use whatever names you want. Thus far, much of what we've seen for 4e isn't so hugely innovative that you couldn't use it (defences instead of saves, healing abilities integral to the character, being 'bloodied' at half hit points).

I would be very surprised if the game, and the various licenses, were written in such a way that this wasn't possible under the existing OGL. Whether anyone will actually try it, on the other hand, will depend on the terms of the GSL, and how litigious WotC are (or at least are perceived to be).

I'll also predict that either an existing company or someone entirely new will make a version of D&D using the existing OGL that is 4E with the serial numbers filed off. That company will make a tremendous amount of money.

I think they would be mad to try. When given the choice between D&D, and a D&D clone with lower production values, lower support, and no clear indication of support, virtually everyone will go with 4e.

What we might see, is a sort of 3.75e, where companies take the best innovations of 4e, apply them to 3.5e, re-balance the whole thing, and maintain the flavour of the current (or an earlier edition). More likely, though, is some sort of Spycraft 4e (or similar), where companies take the best innovations of 4e, apply them to the rulesets of existing or new games, and take things in whole new directions. We know that won't be possible under the GSL. I suspect it will be possible under the existing OGL, and if it is possible then I'm sure it will be done.

 

[Sitara]

I agree with Hussar's points. Third Party publishers are usually the first to bitch about their 'intellectual property' but also the first to jump and grab free products (OGL SRD), and then the first to bitch again when these free products are taken away.

I am not directing this at any particular publisher, simply those who do this.

Oh and Mongoose is releaseing runequest and traveller as OGL SRD, AFAIK and green ROnin is releasing True20 as an OGL SRD. These should be enough to kick start some new 3rd party companies.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I have to agree with the posters here who say that the early 3E days could have done with a lot more modules and a lot fewer sourcebooks.

I am a big supporter of the OGL. I think it really reinvigorated our hobby, and I believe it to be largely responsible for the success of 3E.

That said, as a practical matter, in my D&D games, I invariably tell players that they can use 'core rules, plus this list of WoTC splatbooks'. I generally don't allow feats, classes, or spells from non-WoTC sources.

Almost all of my non-adventure D&D stuff from 3rd party developers got read once, then went unused. The adventures I run, on the other hand, came almost exclusively from 3rd parties (Paizo and Necromancer Games, primarily).

Outside of D&D, the game I really want to play now is Conan. I'd also like to play SpyCraft, and Swashbuckling Adventures. I am interested in each of those games because I could learn the rules as the DM and both systems would be similar enough to D&D that my players would be able to play and have fun without beginning the campaign without a mastery of the rules.


So I want an OGL that encourages lots of adventure development, and development of competing RPGs, while simultaneously discouraging Mongoose from deluging us with a fresh batch of hastily-written PC sourcebooks and Slayer's Guides.

It seems I am unlikely to get that.

Ken

 

[Sitara]

Originally Posted by SteveC
I'll also predict that either an existing company or someone entirely new will make a version of D&D using the existing OGL that is 4E with the serial numbers filed off. That company will make a tremendous amount of money.

I think they would be mad to try. When given the choice between D&D, and a D&D clone with lower production values, lower support, and no clear indication of support, virtually everyone will go with 4e.

castles and crusades.

 

[delericho]

castles and crusades.

Yes, well, if you're going to use actual examples and stuff to totally undermine my supposition, I suppose I can't stop you...

 

[Hussar]

Well, not entirely Del. While C&C is certainly making a go of it, I'm thinking that it's not going to knock D&D out of the top spot any time soon. And, C&C isn't really a 3e clone. It's a 1e clone done with d20 mechanics. Playing to the whole nostalgia thing.

 

[Fifth Element]

I expect there will be a ban on importing material from the OGL to the GSL (and there will definately be a backwards ban), but I don't think that can affect material one holds the copyright to.

I think this is an interesting point. By publishing something under the OGL, and designating it open content, one gives others a license to use it, so long as they follow the terms of the OGL. That doesn't mean you relinquish copyright to the text in question, correct? Is there anything in the OGL that would prevent this - eg, a clause that once something is designated as open content, it cannot be later published in a non-OGL format?

Maybe I should go read it to find out.