Daniel D. Fox
Explorer
No matter how heartfelt your feelings on the matter, they could be expressed in a far less nasty fashion.
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Interesting post over at Grognardia today regarding Gail Gygax
- Thread starter joethelawyer
- Start date
Treebore
First Post
*headdesk*
Um... no.
Gail doesn't "owe" you anything. You paid money for a physical product and you now have the product. There was no further contract.
Also, you shouldn't have written "Grieving widow or not". You should have stopped at "Grieving widow". Seriously, you need to cut the nice lady some flippin' slack, OK? Her beloved husband is dead. I understand that you want to know the details of CZ's future... so does everybody else who has any interest in it. I understand that you want it to come out in a form that you consider good rather than bad... again that's true of just about everybody. And I understand that you want Gary's work to be carried on in a way that he would have wanted. Anybody who cares about Gary wants that, too.
But there's no way you care more about Gary than his wife. She's still drying her eyes and you're throwing this impertinence at her? Not cool.
Proclaim your speculations if you like, but aspersions and demands ought to be left out of it.
You know, your right. I already got what I want. Anything done from now on by Gygax Games has nothing to do with what I want. So I'll just ignore whatever they do. I don't like LA, I think the system sucks, and I am not interested in a Castle Zagyg not written by Gary. So your right, my interest in CZ died with Gary. Thanks for helping me crystalize that realization of fact.
La Bete
First Post
*headdesk*
Um... no.
Gail doesn't "owe" you anything. You paid money for a physical product and you now have the product. There was no further contract.
Also, you shouldn't have written "Grieving widow or not". You should have stopped at "Grieving widow". Seriously, you need to cut the nice lady some flippin' slack, OK? Her beloved husband is dead. I understand that you want to know the details of CZ's future... so does everybody else who has any interest in it. I understand that you want it to come out in a form that you consider good rather than bad... again that's true of just about everybody. And I understand that you want Gary's work to be carried on in a way that he would have wanted. Anybody who cares about Gary wants that, too.
But there's no way you care more about Gary than his wife. She's still drying her eyes and you're throwing this impertinence at her? Not cool.
Proclaim your speculations if you like, but aspersions and demands ought to be left out of it.
TLR and Korgoth sitting in a tree..... Who would have thought we'd see the day?
EDIT - Oh, and well said. Both of you.
WizarDru
Adventurer
I have to admit, I find the tone of the article troubling. There is a sense of entitlement that seems directly at odds with the situation. The author claims that she didn't really know Gary Gygax, but then presumes to imply that she knows his mind at least as well as his wife of more than two decades. The implication, reflected by some posters there and here, is that she has a duty to explain her actions when they don't meet a fan's particular expectations. Beyond that, there is the inference that she is acting not only in an avaricious manner, but that she may be being untruthful or at least disrespectful to her deceased husband's memory. (The idea that one would get rich marrying a game designer, even Gary Gygax, is kind of amusing, though, I'll admit).
Never mind that her husband hasn't even been dead a full year. I've lost both my parents...and I recall how long it took to clear the books with all the credit card companies, federal agencies, banks, utilities, landlords and others. It took a great deal of time and effort...and neither of my parents had creative IP or an active business to be dealt with.
I'm just not sure what to make of such sentiments. I can understand disappointment at delays or changes, but there seems to be an element of a lack of respect that simply seems unpleasant.
Never mind that her husband hasn't even been dead a full year. I've lost both my parents...and I recall how long it took to clear the books with all the credit card companies, federal agencies, banks, utilities, landlords and others. It took a great deal of time and effort...and neither of my parents had creative IP or an active business to be dealt with.
I'm just not sure what to make of such sentiments. I can understand disappointment at delays or changes, but there seems to be an element of a lack of respect that simply seems unpleasant.
Treebore
First Post
Business is business. My customers didn't care that my wife had become bed ridden, they cared about the fact that we couldn't deliver what we promised in the time frame we promised. They were right. So we finished what we could, refunded what we couldn't, and closed our business.
Sentiment is nice, but business is still business. A good business is ALWAYS responsive to its customers.
Sentiment is nice, but business is still business. A good business is ALWAYS responsive to its customers.
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
I'm honestly sorry that you had needy, ungreatful, unreasonable customers — but choosing to become one of those customers because things didn't work out for you does not seem to be a very spiritual choice. Perhaps, instead, you could show Gail Gygax the respect and consideration that you wish your own customers had shown you?
JoeGKushner
Adventurer
In terms of 'being owed'.... well, let's face it, if the fans feel that they're being left out in the cold, as apparently at least one whose already plunked down money does, they're NOT going to purchase future product. At that point, what's right and what's wrong in terms of behavior don't really matter.
In some ways it's like when a football player or movie star is caught doing something bad or something that the public disapproves of. Regardless of what is actually happening or what the final truth of that matter turns out to be, it can cripple a career. Hell, Governor Blago hasn't been brought to trial yet but to many, including myself, guilty.
Some can stand on the podium and go "ye be owed nothing" and if there were no future product coming out, not a single thing that the people in charge wanted the fans to purchase in the future, you'd be right.
But as we're talking about a person in a business, well, it remains to be seen what the actual effect of these news articles will be and what real effect they will have on future sales.
As I've noted elsewhere, I've got no dog in this but if people are thinking that some who've played the game for 30+ years and have waited that long for Gary's vision to come out and feel that's threatened now aren't going to feel threatened? They don't hold the same passion for the game for right or wrong reasons.
In some ways it's like when a football player or movie star is caught doing something bad or something that the public disapproves of. Regardless of what is actually happening or what the final truth of that matter turns out to be, it can cripple a career. Hell, Governor Blago hasn't been brought to trial yet but to many, including myself, guilty.
Some can stand on the podium and go "ye be owed nothing" and if there were no future product coming out, not a single thing that the people in charge wanted the fans to purchase in the future, you'd be right.
But as we're talking about a person in a business, well, it remains to be seen what the actual effect of these news articles will be and what real effect they will have on future sales.
As I've noted elsewhere, I've got no dog in this but if people are thinking that some who've played the game for 30+ years and have waited that long for Gary's vision to come out and feel that's threatened now aren't going to feel threatened? They don't hold the same passion for the game for right or wrong reasons.
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
Or, perhaps, they are familiar with the concept of passion as something other than lashing out with misplaced rage.
Mark
CreativeMountainGames.com
It sure appears that she is "getting things on track" to do so. Given her loss, and considering whatever happens it might be judged relative to previous attempts, I think the benefit of the doubt is in order for awhile.
To be quite honest, I don't believe sales are a primary factor for Gail as much as respect for Gary's work. I have no clue how much either of them made (and it's none of our business) it but my guess would be that Gail was the primary breadwinner of the family. Really, even for a guy like Gary, the print gaming world is not very lucrative.
Let's face it, while Gary wanted to make a profit he did what he wanted--most of his efforts before he agreed to do CZ were focused on his own creations. As a fan of Gary the writer rather than Gary the D&D creator, I wouldn't care if Gail decided to just print-to-order Gary's unpublished LA stuff or other manuscripts that were 100% Gary. (And like I've said in other threads, there's several things Gary wrote that are completed unlike CZ).
One other thing I should point out. Where did this idea come from that Jeff T. is the "annointed one", the only one who can interpret Gary's vision for Castle Zagyg? Granted, he did a great job and Gary was proud of him. But, it seems like fans think he was passed an official rede and edict, with Gary saying "Jeff, you are the Rock upon which you will build the Castle of Zagyg". It seems that fans are making that interpretation rather than anything Gary said.
If the procedure was like stuff done in the past for Trigee, which I do have knowledge of--Gary would have received manuscripts, reviewed, and edited that, then sent back. So at minimum Trigee would have all those notes.
And Gary trusted other people. Those two people Gail mentioned, Spenser and Jon, worked a lot with Gary on LA. If anybody knows Jon Creffield's track record, he worked with TLG before, on Hall of Many Panes, Slayers Guide, etc--and he's worked with Gary since the very late 1990s. There are other authors Gary trusted besides Jeff---and not just Mentzer and his sons. There's no "crown prince" heir to Gary's work or anything like that.
And to be perfectly frank, even if the contract with TLG wasn't canceled, and even if Jeff didn't leave the project--Gary is still dead. I suspect the deeper you go into the dungeons the more "interpretive" it's gonna be, depending on how much Gary was able to flesh out his bible. So no matter who does it, it will always be judged like that, much like the movie A.I. was judged because Steven Spielburg was trying to finish a Stanley Kubrik film.
Let's face it, while Gary wanted to make a profit he did what he wanted--most of his efforts before he agreed to do CZ were focused on his own creations. As a fan of Gary the writer rather than Gary the D&D creator, I wouldn't care if Gail decided to just print-to-order Gary's unpublished LA stuff or other manuscripts that were 100% Gary. (And like I've said in other threads, there's several things Gary wrote that are completed unlike CZ).
One other thing I should point out. Where did this idea come from that Jeff T. is the "annointed one", the only one who can interpret Gary's vision for Castle Zagyg? Granted, he did a great job and Gary was proud of him. But, it seems like fans think he was passed an official rede and edict, with Gary saying "Jeff, you are the Rock upon which you will build the Castle of Zagyg". It seems that fans are making that interpretation rather than anything Gary said.
If the procedure was like stuff done in the past for Trigee, which I do have knowledge of--Gary would have received manuscripts, reviewed, and edited that, then sent back. So at minimum Trigee would have all those notes.
And Gary trusted other people. Those two people Gail mentioned, Spenser and Jon, worked a lot with Gary on LA. If anybody knows Jon Creffield's track record, he worked with TLG before, on Hall of Many Panes, Slayers Guide, etc--and he's worked with Gary since the very late 1990s. There are other authors Gary trusted besides Jeff---and not just Mentzer and his sons. There's no "crown prince" heir to Gary's work or anything like that.
And to be perfectly frank, even if the contract with TLG wasn't canceled, and even if Jeff didn't leave the project--Gary is still dead. I suspect the deeper you go into the dungeons the more "interpretive" it's gonna be, depending on how much Gary was able to flesh out his bible. So no matter who does it, it will always be judged like that, much like the movie A.I. was judged because Steven Spielburg was trying to finish a Stanley Kubrik film.
