Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

[Gentlegamer]

Of course! You're better than me. Why didn't I see it before. Thank you for opening my eyes and showing me how to have rightfun instead of my wrongfun I was having before.

Finally, you get it!

It is also a pratical consideration. 1st level characters can be notoriously short lived. Too often a party is "crafted" with certain backgrounds in mind, and then BAM! one of them dies, throwing off the whole "story" dynamic, or what have you. Also, extensive pregame backgrounds tend to give players big heads and lead to "selfish" game play where (A)D&D is a "team" game.

When DMing, I'd rather have PCs dive into the game. This is particularly true for those who have never played a RPG before, or are not experienced in the Fantasy genre.

As a player, I'm not worried about background one bit. My character is there to create his "story" . . . or die trying!

 

[Breakdaddy]

Cool. Say, I created some d20 SW Starship Control sheets. I'd appreciate whatever input you might have regarding them!

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=138755
.

So I downloaded your sheets, and I really like the layout. Ill give them a shot next game, but I don't see where they will do anything but help me keep things running quickly and smoothly. Thanks for sharing em!

In answer to your other comments; you are correct in your statement that some of the rules-lite guys smacked on Dancey a little bit and it has no bearing on the actual facts. I didnt mean to imply that the statement was false. However, your statements could be construed as blanket dismissiveness against the rules-lite people, giving the perception that they should be marginalized because their position differs from yours. Either way, it doesnt kill my dog, so thanks for the SWD20 resource.

 

[BluSponge]

Here's a simple test:

Name a "rules lite" RPG that remained in print and actively supported by a publisher for more than 5 years.

Unless your definition of rules lite is considerably different from mine, Vampire: the Masquarade (and all subsequent WoD spin offs). WoD is pretty rules lite all things considered. The books are more about fluff than rules.

I say that, and I don't even like the game.

Tom

 

[BluSponge]

In a rules heavy game the PCs get spot checks to see the sneaking assassin.

In rules-lite games the DM tells the PCs whether or not the PCs see the sneaking assassin.

If you can't tell the difference, then there isn't much I can do to explain it further.

EDIT: This is a generality, the exact example isn't the point. The resolution system is the point.

And its a poor one at that.

Most rules lite games call for die rolls or tests only when the action is difficult in nature. So you wouldn't make a die roll to notice that the farmer is milking a black cow. But a sneaking assassin would definitely require a (likely opposed) test. At least that's been the case with EVERY rules light game I've played/read (Over the Edge, Talislanta, SAGA, R.I.P., etc.).

Tom

 

[The Sigil]

(Without reading the rest of the thread)

Here's a simple test:

Name a "rules lite" RPG that remained in print and actively supported by a publisher for more than 5 years.

oD&D immediately jumps to mind. You remember, the one that eventually morphed into the Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortal Boxed Sets and upon which most D&Ders cut their teeth?

First printing: 1977
Nineteenth printing: 1999

http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/SetPages/Basic.html

22 years is a pretty significant run, no?

How about Tunnels & Trolls? (1975 - "early 80s")

I guess it depends on your vision of "rules lite" but to me, oD&D was pretty doggone rules-lite.

--The Sigil

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So I downloaded your sheets, and I really like the layout. Ill give them a shot next game, but I don't see where they will do anything but help me keep things running quickly and smoothly. Thanks for sharing em!

That was the plan - my major complaint with the StarWars d20 rulebook is that the rules for performing various actions are spread throughout a ridiculous number of pages. Each force skill's applications are in the individual skill's description, which can be found anywhere between pages 76 and 100. The rules on speed modifiers to attack rolls are on 218, while those for range are on 214, and flying defensively is on page 211.

I hoped that, by getting everything in one place in an easily locatable and trackable format, questions like "Wait - how fast are we going, and how does that affect my attack rolls?" will come up less often.

If you've got any further comments - pro, con, constructive criticism, etc. - I'd appreciate the feedback in the thread I linked to.

 

[BluSponge]

Wow, what a bizarre assertion...was Mr. Dancey using humans or lab rats in his experiment?
Anyone who thinks Savage Worlds or Castles & Crusades don't play faster or create characters faster is using some weird control group.

To be fair, C&C and SW are more rules medium games.

It doesn't make the statement any less perplexing.

Tom

 

[MerricB]

(Without reading the rest of the thread)
oD&D immediately jumps to mind. You remember, the one that eventually morphed into the Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortal Boxed Sets and upon which most D&Ders cut their teeth?

First printing: 1977
Nineteenth printing: 1999

http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/SetPages/Basic.html

22 years is a pretty significant run, no?

oD&D was possibly rules-light. (It certainly was confusing and incomplete). The Basic D&D line was _certainly_ not rules-light once Companion and Master came along.

 

[MerricB]

Here's a simple test:

Name a "rules lite" RPG that remained in print and actively supported by a publisher for more than 5 years.

I think only Amber (a completely genius design, BTW) meets this criteria.

Err... one supplement that came out extremely late (Shadow Knight), and some subscription-only books isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

I love Amber, but the support I witnessed was very light indeed.

Cheers!

 

[buzz]

Dragonlance was by no means a "hottest-selling" campaign setting, which is probably why it was cancelled before they turned it into SAGA.

I call total BS on this. DL started the current trend of setting/novel cross-selling, and the books routinely make the NYT best-seller list. Brand city.