Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

[Ourph]

Let's examine this assumption. One of my long term projects is to database the entire market beat section from Comics & Games Retailer. For those of you not in the know, this is an industry publication that tracks sales trends for most major hobby gaming categories. Unforuntately, their data is self-reported by retailers and is not based on POS data, so it is considered to be quite suspect in specifics. However, for the purposes of general trend analysis, espeically for marketshare leaders, it is reasonably useful.

Ryan, I notice WHFRP wasn't included in your data, even though it was in print during both periods you examine (WHFRPv1 through Hogshead in 1999/2000 and WHFRPv2 in Feb 2005 through BI/GI). Do you know why that data isn't present?

 

[Pramas]

Although I think it is a shame that Warhammer isn't a D20 game, I'm not at all surprised that GW wouldn't let Green Ronin do it that way.

That presumes we ever wanted to do WFRP as a d20 game, which we didn't. From my very first pitch to GW, my position was that d20 was the wrong way to go for WFRP.

 

[Andre]

If the reference platform was freely available, as is the SRD now, distribution would largely be a non-issue.

I disagree. The SRD has been available since soon after the 3.0 books were first released, but WOTC has sold hundreds of thousands (millions?) of core books in past few years. Like it not, most gamers seem unwilling to use an online/digital rules source for this game. Personally, I like having the SRD available for quick searches, but I wouldn't want to use it in place of the core books.

Consider this scenario: the mythical 4E is published by WOTC in both print and digital forms. The digital form is similar to the SRD and is updated quarterly with FAQ, errata, and new rules. Access to the 4E SRD is free to anyone with the bandwith to download it. Gamers are encouraged by WOTC to use the latest version of the rules, the SRD, rather than the core books. What would be the likely effects of this?

Either the SRD would become the premier source of game rules, in which case WOTC's cash cow dries up. Or it would be used as it is today, as a niche product that seems to have little or no effect on most gamers. The third option, that WOTC would charge for the SRD, would simply encourage more gamers to stick with the core books, which are not updated on a quarterly basis, slowing acceptance of the new rules, and further splintering the market. "Which version are you playing? 4.0, 4.0147, or the latest superduper 4.11?"

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I just don't see the gaming community ready to accept game rules in the same form that we accept software builds. And I don't think that will change for a long time.

 

[Corinth]

I suspect that RPGs are capital goods masquerading as consumer goods.

 

[RyanD]

That presumes we ever wanted to do WFRP as a d20 game, which we didn't. From my very first pitch to GW, my position was that d20 was the wrong way to go for WFRP.

Now I'm extremely interested.

Could you discuss the reasons you think WFRP requires a mechanically distinct approach?

 

[SweeneyTodd]

That was never an assumption of mine and I've never stated such. D&D (and D20) is very good at modeling a certain kind of RPG experience (a party of adventurers forms and seeks challenges and are rewarded with increases in power). It is not well suited to many other kinds of storytelling/gaming; it cannot be all things to all people.

I thought that was what you meant. Now if we'd only had someone state that before all these discussions started, they would have been a few dozen pages shorter.

(For example, the whole "rules light" thing sort of falls by the wayside -- it took me pages of posts and replies before I realized, "Oh, you're saying you want the system to do X. I want it to do Y. That explains everything..")

By the way, Ryan, I also think your quote above answers your question about WHFRP. They probably could have made it d20, but it'd have drifted the system even more than, say, Midnight or Iron Heroes. They probably felt that making it d20, drifted to suit the WHFRP style of play, wasn't preferable to evolving the old WHFRP system, which already supported that style of play. (For instance, the WHFRP system and setting both reflect PCs who don't grow in power to the point where they can do what high level D&D characters can.)

 

[RyanD]

Ryan, I notice WHFRP wasn't included in your data ... Do you know why that data isn't present?

No sales activity was reported by retailers during the period in question.

No sales from May of '99 to October of '99, and no sales from April '00 through July '00.

WHFRP's heyday was before C&GR started collecting data. For the data I have access to, it appears to have sold about 1/3 as well as Call of C, which is the slowest selling "Evergreen" RPG I am tracking.

As I have heard rumors of 50,000 unit print runs for the new version, I can only assume that the Warhammer Fantasy brand is strong like bull!

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Originally, D&D had three skimpy books and somehow, we all survived. Must have been a pretty good game to get where it is now!

I didn't do "just fine", I did alright. It was more fun than sitting around doing nothing, but we had so many arguements each week, resulting in people picking up their stuff and going home or once a DM I had went into his room and refused to come out and left all his players sitting around a table.

All due to arguements due to lack of rules. There were weeks I felt it was easier not to play. I KNEW there must be a better way though. If only someone would write down rules for the things we argued each week about. My friends wouldn't accept the ones I made up.

BTW:
Father Flagellent
18th level Cleric (OD&D)
(snip)
Yeah, that's the whole character and he took me all of two minutes to create. I'm not even going to attempt to make a 3.5 version!

Alright, I'll bite:

Race: (I'll assume human)
Strength: 10 (0)
Intelligence: 12 (+1)
Wisdom: 20 (+5) (currently 26 with periapt)
Constitution: 9 (-1)
Dexterity: 11 (0)
Charisma: 17 (+3)
Alignment: Lawful Good (seems good to me)
Gold Pieces: GP value for 18th level (don't have a DMG to check it)
Experience: 153000
Hit Points: 79
Spells: 6 5+1(+2) 5+1(+2) 5+1(+2) 5+1(+2) 4+1(+1) 4+1(+1) 3+1(+1) 3+1(+1) 2+1
Domains: Healing and War
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword)(B), Weapon Focus (longsword)(B), Combat Casting, Improved Crit (longsword), Augmented Healing, Extra Turning(x2), Quicken Spell, Empower Spell, Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
Skills: Heal 21(+8), Spellcraft 21(+1), Knowledge(Religion) 21(+1), Concentration 21(-1)
Equipment: silver cross, Longsword +4, full plate armor & large steel shield +5, potions of Cure Serious Wounds and Gaseous Form, Boots of Levitation, backpack, iron rations, waterskin, 3 vials of holy water and a church in the city, periapt of wisdom +6, ring of protection +4 (and a bunch of gold left over)
Backstory: explored White Lion castle in the name of God, wherein he eventually laid low the vile Baron Darkcloak and his undead horde. Now resides in the city of Emberfile, only occasionally going on quests for myriad holy reasons.

Yeah, that's the whole character and he took me all of two minutes to create. I'm not even going to attempt to make a 3.5 version!

Mine took me about 15 minutes, but I was interupted a couple of times(I'm at work), and had to consult the SRD for a couple things I didn't know.

Overall, not half bad.

 

[Psion]

Mine took me about 15 minutes, but I was interupted a couple of times(I'm at work), and had to consult the SRD for a couple things I didn't know.

If you had picked knowledge and sun domains, you could have just plugged in the spells I picked a few (okay, MAAAANY) pages back.

 

[RyanD]

[rsd - edited to add "ability scores" to my list of modules]

(For instance, the WHFRP system and setting both reflect PCs who don't grow in power to the point where they can do what high level D&D characters can.)

Power inflation is not a feature of D20. It is a feature of D&D. It would be very easy to make a D20 game where high level characters are not demigods.

I veiw D20 as a modular RPG system. These are the key modules:

1) The core mechanic (d20 + modifiers vs. target numbers) for task resolution

2) Six ability scores (STR, DEX, CON, WIS, INT, CHA; different names ok but undesirable)

3) States & Conditions

4) Skills

5) Feats

6) The game components (races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items, etc.)

I've ordered those in decreasing importance (from the perspective of the network externality). By the time you get to #5 and #6, I feel you can make extremely radical changes without introducing much in the way of inefficiencies.

A lot of people think that they need to start with D&D as the baseline, and then change D&D to whatever game they're targeting. I think that's the wrong approach. I think the best approach is to start at #1 and build up, making design choices at each step to reach a desired outcome. The result may appear to be highly divergent from D&D, but as long as it mechanically works the same way, and uses consistent definitions, the ability of a player to use the game based on prior knowledge will be quite high.

That's why I structured the original SRD the way I did and did not use the outline of the D&D core books.

If you want a low powered game with fragile PCs, D20 will accomodate you just fine. On the other hand, if you want a game where each different kind of task requires a different approach to its resolution mechanics, D20 is not your ideal platform.

D20 does not support linear character advancement well. Its minimum scale is 5% increments. If you want a game where little bits of the character are constantly changing in very minor, gradual ways over time, D20 is not a good fit.

D20 is not a good system for people who need to memorize all the rules. D20 assumes that you're using a rulebook as a part of game play, and thus a higher level of complexity is involved vs. what would be acceptable if the players were expected to have memorized everything.

D20 is not a good fit for large discrepencies in size & power. (i.e., mortals vs. gods, marines vs. battleships, bugs vs. people)

D20 is not a good fit for characters that change radically between (or in the middle of) game sessions (because of the amount of bookkeeping required).

D20 is not a good game for GMs who want to surprise players or use "hidden knowledge" of the mechanics as a storytelling feature.

But D20 is a good game for all kinds of genres that involve groups of people who band together and face challenges in return for increased power.