Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

Campbell said:
The following is what Mearls actually said.


Now the question becomes what exactly Mearls meant by "build products". One interpretation might be that Mearls was talking about the quality of design work being done within the 'd20 industry'. Another, and in my opinion more interesting, interpretation could be that Mearls was talking about the types of business decisions d20 companies have been making since 2000, as in how product lines are conceived, developed, and marketed in the aggregate. This is also a stronger position to take. The question then becomes what should d20 companies do on a strategic rather than tactical level to both serve the market and reliably perform at higher profit margins. One area that I would like to see d20/OGL companies improve upon is the use of other companies' OGC as a jumpiing off point where previous work has been done. I believe there is a fair amount of unnecesarry reinventing the wheel goiing on.
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The word "build" is rather vague. I'll try to address this, though I fear I'll just add ambiguity. I have a ton of work for this afternoon and some errands to run. Anyway, here goes:

The process of building a product is far more involved and detailed than simply writing and designing it. It begins with the most important questions that a designer or company has to answer: what does this book seek to do? What is its purpose? What does it do that no other book does? Is that purpose worth pursuing?

This is the key point where the staggering majority of products die. In some cases it's simply ignorance - a company hasn't done much work before, the "industry" wisdom on sales and success is, at best, distorted (no one aside from John Nephew will ever come out and say "product X just didn't sell well for us"), the company ignores its own sales data, and so on. There's also an impulse to shoot for the fences - a lot of companies seem to try to push out books that cover areas or subjects that haven't been touched yet in hopes of hitting on some raw, hungry portion of the market.

The big problems here are lack of marketing data (the company/designer simply doesn't know what gamers want) and, specific d20, a fundamental ignorance of the culture of D&D. The second bit is the tricky part - I've long believed that a designer has to have a fundamental love of D&D, the essence of the D&D play experience, its tropes, and its somewhat undefinable "je ne sais quoi" that makes it so sticky for gamers. In other words, someone who plays D&D, loves D&D, and embraces D&D is much more likely to come up with product ideas and concepts that appeal to D&D players.

(Here's a simple analogy: consider processes and ideas at work that come from people on your own team or management level and those from above. Which tend to work better? The same thing is at work here - the designer who is engaged in D&D is much more likely to understand the game, what it needs, where it is, and where it's going than someone who isn't).

So that's step 1, and that's where most game products die. They're DOA.

At the finer level, we have mechanics and story design. Story design is all over the map - Sturgeon's law and all that.

Mechanics design is trickier. I talk about this on my journal, but I think there's a few factors at work:

* Story design is sexier and leads to novel contracts, so designers focus on it.
* The economics of freelancing and publishing reward speed - more contracts equals more income. More books released, in theory, means more income or (maybe) better cash flow. Good mechanical design takes time. It takes testing. It takes study, analysis, comparison, and research.
* There is no culture of learning, study, analysis, and growth in the RPG "industry".
* Since most smaller companies can't compete in terms of playtesting, some of them actively push the idea that rules are bad for RPGs. This bleeds into the design community.
* RPG work pays poorly and demands a fair amount of time, even for a freelancer. Thus, we have a brain drain where capable people go into game design work in other industries or they stick to gaming as a hobby.

So, once you go through all those filters, I think you end up with less than a handful of people in the d20 industry who can concept a viable product, build interesting, useful ideas into that product, and then deliver a final, complete draft.

The key consideration is that for a D&D player or DM, there's no need to have the same rigorous ability in design as a professional. A DM can produce material balanced and usable for his specific game with ease - the key is when you try to port that material to the game as a whole.

The challenge to the industry, IMO, is finding those DMs who are producing really cool, useful, professional grade material, and recruiting them to write professionally.
 

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RyanD said:
Shadowrun and CoC are essentially static - they are the same games published throughout this entire timeframe. My opinion is that they'd sell just as well if they had been D20 from the start,

I doubt that. If there's one thing I've seen that d20 is NOT good for, it's modern-day or future gaming. I'm assuming that d20 Modern is included in "d20 (Wizards of the Coast)" in your database (along with Star Wars d20, which I admit suffers from not having any new stuff released), behind HERO, GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, and Shadowrun. d20 needs to be bent and folded almost to the point of being unrecognizable in order to work well with a modern/future setting (such as with Mutants & Masterminds).

My preferred game for doing modern/future gaming is still Alternity, which was cancelled despite being an OK seller for anyone who isn't WOTC. It's not perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than d20 for the kinds of things it does.
 

Andre said:
I disagree. The SRD has been available since soon after the 3.0 books were first released, but WOTC has sold hundreds of thousands (millions?) of core books in past few years. Like it not, most gamers seem unwilling to use an online/digital rules source for this game.
That's true. We've got three PHBs in my group, even though we'd really only need to print out the SRD.

But that doesn't matter, because the main users of a freely distributed reference document would be the designers. The aim of the OGL was to allow publishers and writers to produce supplements without paying license fees. Giving free electronic versions of the rules to gamers is just a byproduct.
 

Staffan said:
I doubt that. If there's one thing I've seen that d20 is NOT good for, it's modern-day or future gaming.

Those who have played in my Traveller d20 games to date seem to disagree. ;)

And I do as well.

d20 needs to be bent and folded almost to the point of being unrecognizable in order to work well with a modern/future setting (such as with Mutants & Masterminds).

As genres go, M&M is a supers game, not a modern action game or SF game. Certainly not in the same category as Alternity.

And I would agree perfectly that for supers, d20 needs to change lots, as some of the fundamental tenets of the genre mismatch the system's assumptions.
 
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T20 has some solid mechanics. The lethality of combat is excellent modification of the d20 System, and the class design is solid for a game where blood shed is often a last resort. I heart T20 almost as much as Star Hero.
 

mearls said:
SNIP

The challenge to the industry, IMO, is finding those DMs who are producing really cool, useful, professional grade material, and recruiting them to write professionally.

Recruiting and Keeping can be a challlenge but its really an issue of economics -- Writing game stuff pays so poorly that food service clerks make as good or better a living -- as an example one of the BEST Non WOTC Employers is SJGames -- you can get 3 cents a word on E23 and I assume a bit more for print. WOTC is one of the very few exceptions -- and i won't discuss them but even your guys are mostly freelancers

Now SJ Games (and many industry) rates come out to $2400 for a project, lets say you get 5 cents for Print that would be $4000 for an 80k word project that can take a minimum of a month (usually 2) if you are highly skilled

-- Very few people can produce 12+ of these a year--

In fact to make a decent living in California (not good mind but acceptable) as a full time game writer I would need a project a month with certitude of getting paid in full every time or a job as a staff writer for 40K -- can many outside of WOTC afford that?

Until they can and there are a decent number of jobs like that that gaming will remain Mostly Hobby Only -- Its My Baby Right to PDF Man

Also IMO many of the best writers are very time limited -- they tend to have work/or school for some at 50+ hours a week (official 40hr work week, lunch and commute) + personal life and maybe a campaign too (for another 5+) this leaves precious little time to write -- call it 10 hours a week if they cut back on internet and TV and Video games and work like a Trooper

You can't expect a stream of a professional content from those circumstances

Instead (because of the low cost of entry) you get what we have now -- Lots of amature stuff of various grades

Fortunately technology makes editing and production better and gamers in general are pretty creative. Most of the material is quite decent -- maybe not professional grade but certainly worth while and fun
 

Staffan said:
I'm assuming that d20 Modern is included in "d20 (Wizards of the Coast)" in your database (along with Star Wars d20, which I admit suffers from not having any new stuff released), behind HERO, GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, and Shadowrun.
Not sure exactly, it seems that you weren't exactly clear, but you did know that D20 (Star Wars) actually had it's own separate entry above HERO, GURPS, CoC, and Shadowrun. Right under D20 (Mongoose).
 

Psion said:
Those who have played in my Traveller d20 games to date seem to disagree. ;)
I haven't played T20, so I wouldn't know about that. I do know that d20 Modern misses the boat in a lot of ways.

I think my main problem is that the expectations I get when watching a modern-day/sci-fi movie or TV show jives rather poorly with a class/level-based system. Luke Skywalker is an excellent pilot, an athlete, a good shot, and a jedi. Han Solo is a pilot, mechanic, fast-talker, gambler, and a good shot. Sheridan is a diplomat, leader, pilot, tactician, and soldier. Garibaldi is a hacker, soldier, pilot, business-man, and a decent leader. Sydney Bristow is an athlete, great with disguises, a great shot, an actress, an infiltrator, and so on. Malcolm Reynolds is a leader, planner, good shot, and throws a mean punch (not so good with a sword though). Rupert Giles is a librarian, researcher, fighter, trainer, and sometime sorcerer.

Basically, people in modern/future sources exhibit multiple talents, even when they're part of an ensemble cast - sure, not all people are the same, but their areas of competency seem a lot larger than those of typical D&D characters. By comparison, fantasy characters tend to be far more archetypal - the Knight, the Wizard, the Thief, and so on. This means that a class-based system works much better for fantasy than modern/future.
 

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