Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

[Psion]

Is this a fully stat-ed NPC?

A sufficiently statted NPC would have been much quicker.

 

[Psion]

No, you're not done.

Uh, yes I am. I only said I was going to see how long it took to pick spells.

You do not have the luxury of re-defining challenges I set for myself, thankyouverymuch.

If your post was just a rude way of saying "that's not all there is to making a character", that was not my intention from the outset.

 

[der_kluge]

18th level cleric

Assume wis 15+4 advancements = 19 = +4 wis bonus

<snip>

Done.

But you didn't pick a race, you didn't pick feats, you didn't calculate his skills, take any synergies into account (hey, you never know when a bluff skill might come in handy, even in a pick-up game). you didn't pick magic items. That 18th level cleric isn't going to last long without some magic gear.

 

[Psion]

But you didn't pick a race, you didn't pick feats, you didn't calculate his skills, take any synergies into account (hey, you never know when a bluff skill might come in handy, even in a pick-up game). you didn't pick magic items. That 18th level cleric isn't going to last long without some magic gear.

See the post above yours. I never said I was going to fully stat out a character. Just pick spells.

The point brought forth was that there is a big time investment in picking spells. I was just doing a real illustration of how long picking spells for a PC should take.

 

[diaglo]

But you didn't pick a race, you didn't pick feats, you didn't calculate his skills, take any synergies into account (hey, you never know when a bluff skill might come in handy, even in a pick-up game). you didn't pick magic items. That 18th level cleric isn't going to last long without some magic gear.

nor give him a name.

most players take the longest time coming up with a darn name.

 

[Desdichado]

But you didn't pick a race, you didn't pick feats, you didn't calculate his skills, take any synergies into account (hey, you never know when a bluff skill might come in handy, even in a pick-up game). you didn't pick magic items. That 18th level cleric isn't going to last long without some magic gear.

Even if it takes as long to do that as it took to do what he did do, I think we've got a clear indication that it doesn't take "hours" to make even a high level spellcaster, unless the player is indecisive.

The post I was responded to arbitrarily picked an hour for character creation as the maximum cut-off point for short vs. long, and I think it's clear it can be done in half an hour, even for a high level spellcaster, which is the most complex and time consuming option to create by far. Any other type of character could be done in much less time. I routinely make low to mid-level characters in five minutes or less of all classes and races.

 

[der_kluge]

Isn't this the same kinda stuff you HAVE to come up with on a near constant basis when using a RL system?

<snip>

I found all of this in 5 minutes using the core books. It took longer to find page numbers for the rules I already knew. I fail to see how I could have been faster without making something up on the fly (Yes, No, Yes, eh, 1d6 damage)

Well, I can see your point, but there are just so many other little things in 3rd edition that don't exist in say C&C, or OD&D - the myriad spells, and things like DR, or counterspelling which can complicate combat.

And not everyone knows all these rules. I'm not a walking rules encyclopedia. To avoid confrontation with my players after the fact, I want to make sure I have the precise rule at the moment in which the event happens. So, rather than guessing that the Resilient Sphere is large enough, I'm probably going to look up how big a Slaad is, and then I might ask the player (whom I expect to know) how big his sphere is. He might have to look that up as well. So, that takes time away from play. And some rules like "can you D-door into an anti-life shell" don't exist in the game, so despite the argument that 3rd edition is rules-heavy, it *still* doesn't cover every situation (and I don't expect it to), but the fact that it tries really hard to do so, leads me to believe that there might be some discussion about it somewhere, so in that situation, I'm inclined to look that one up as well. Those were actual situations that came up in my game, btw. And we had to stop and look all of them up because no one at the table knew off hand what the answer was, and this was a group that had probably been gaming collectively for 50 years or more.

 

[WizarDru]

nor give him a name.

most players take the longest time coming up with a darn name.

But...but....names are HARD, mang.
I mean, if they were hard for Gygan and Arneson, how can we do better?

 

[der_kluge]

See the post above yours. I never said I was going to fully stat out a character. Just pick spells.

The point brought forth was that there is a big time investment in picking spells. I was just doing a real illustration of how long picking spells for a PC should take.

But there's a lot more to making a cleric than just picking his spells. Maybe I should make a "playable" cleric and see how long it takes me. I would do that, but then I'm at work, and I don't really want to spend the rest of the morning working on a character I'm never going to play.

But the time it takes to make a character has as much to do with whether the setting is high magic or low magic. If I make a high level fighter, and I don't have to worry about choosing magic items, then it will be a lot faster than if I do. So, I'm not even convinced that this is even a RH v. RL argument. It's just as much LM v. HM as well.

I was only trying to point out to JD that statting out high level baddies can take a long time in 3rd edition, especially if you really want to tailor them with specific feats, magic items, and maybe a PrC, or a template, as I often do.


And regarding the rules, there are those who simply aren't as comfortable making up a ruling on the fly, especially when I'm sure that there is already a ruling on the topic. I'm probably going to be more comfortable adlibing a rule when I know there isn't a rule in the book, versus adlibing a rule that I simply don't know the answer to, yet I know there is probably a rule for it, somewhere. Let's face it, there are lots of little rules in 3rd edition that exist, that rarely come up in game play, but that we know in the backs of our minds that are in there.

 

[diaglo]

roll 3d6 six times. record scores.

str
int
wis
con
dex
cha

roll 3d6 multiple by 10 for gps.

roll d6 hps

pick class. pick race. pick alignment. buy equipment.

other than name done.