Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

[buzz]

Random Thought: GURPS Lite is 6 printed-pages. Does that make it 'rules-light'? Discuss.

Pedantic: GURPS Lite is 32 pages.

 

[buzz]

In my opinion, Rolemaster is rules lite and D&D is rules heavy.

This is the most creative definition of "lite" I have yet seen in this thread. Even classifying HARP as "lite" would be a massive stretch.

 

[buzz]

Well, not very often, admittedly, but if you're playing in a high level 3rd edition campaign, the GM has to spend a lot of time if he's statting out lots of high level spellcasters as opponents.

Why are we even discussing this? It's no secret that really high-level D&D PCs can take time to create (1st-level is cake, though). The point is what kind of reward you're getting for your effort. If I think the play experience of a game blows, I don't really care how fast I was able to create a PC (other than being glad that I only wasted so much time on it).

I had to go through two iterations of the build I did for my main Champions character, and each took a lot of time, even with HERO Designer software. That in no way has made me enjoy the two years I've been playing him any less.

As long as the process is enjoyable and the resulting play is fun, I could care less how long it takes to make a PC. Making PCs is half the fun.

 

[buzz]

I should point out, Dancey and Mike Mearls were both commenting in a comment thread from a BLOG. Not a trade magazine. Not an industry news column. Not even ENWorld. Between professional colleagues (I don't know if they're friends or not, but I assume at least casual acquaintences). This whole "how DARE THEY!" sub-theme to the thread seems awfully silly to me.

Second thought: Dancey and Mearls were talking purely from a financial standpoint. In general, the trend appears that games that are rules heavier sell better and longer than games that don't. That would seem to be self-evident: if a game really only requires a very simple rule-set, it really only needs supplements for fluff....and pure fluff supplements don't really sell that well. Great for individual games, perhaps, but not conducive to continued company growth and support. Right or wrong, that's the direction they're approaching this discussion from, I think. This thread has taken that and made it the footnote, while taking what was an anecdote of the original thread and made it the focus...because that's what interests us.

Quoted for truth.

 

[WizarDru]

Pedantic: GURPS Lite is 32 pages.

Sorry, you're right. I was thinking of the old pamphlet for 3rd Edition that was passed out in the stores. Fourth Edition has a much more comprehensive 'Lite' version. Still, the point stands.

 

[Voadam]

18th level cleric

Assume wis 15+4 advancements = 19 = +4 wis bonus

0: 6
1-3: 6+1
4: 5+1
5-6: 4+1
7-8: 3+1
9: 2+1

Domains: Sun, Knowledge
Domain spells: 1 - Detect Secret Doors; 2 - Detect Thoughts; 3 - Searing Light; 4 - Divination; 5 - True Seeing; 6 - Find the Path; 7 - Sunbeam; 8 - Sunburst; 9 - Prismatic Sphere.
Spells prepared: 0 - Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Light (x2), Read Magic;1 -Command, Comprehend Languages, Entropic Shield, Protection from Evil, Remove Fear, Shield of Faith; 2 - Bull's Strenght, Bear's Endurance, Owl's Wisdom, Hold PErson, Shatter, Shield Other; 3 - Continual Flame, Invisibility Purge, Magic Circle against Evil, Protection from Energy (x2), Remove Curse; 4 - Death Ward, Dimentiuonal Anchor, Freedom of Movement, Divine Power, Restoration; 5 - Break Enchantment, Flame Strike, Scrying, Spell Resitance; 6 - Greater Dispel Magic, Harm, Heal, Wind Walk; 7 - Holy Word, Regenerate, Summon Monster VII; 8 - Holy Aura, Fire Storm, Summon Monster VIII; 9 - Miracle, True Resurrection.

If I knew how strong or weak the magic provided would be, I might pick magic vestement instead at 3rd level.

Done.

Pearls of power? Wisdom buffing items? Vow of poverty stat boosts? Tome type item for wisdom? Racial wisdom bonus or penalty? Scrolls, wands, staves, spell storing rings or weapons?

Your point for picking srd spells for a straight cleric once you determine stats is valid, but you might have to spend more time fine tuning and adding to the spells after you pick items and feats for this npc. Of course loading up on powerful armor, a big weapon, and a wondrous item or two can work as well without you touching the spell list.

 

[buzz]

As to the connection I speculated about between Dancey and Mearls, that comes from seeing Dancey post and support what Mearls is saying, when Mearls isn't doing so himself, and from noting that what Mearls is saying is pretty doggone close to Dancey's viewpoints. Too close in some instances....

Man, between this and all the 4e threads I've seen you post in...

 

[buzz]

Sorry, you're right. I was thinking of the old pamphlet for 3rd Edition that was passed out in the stores. Fourth Edition has a much more comprehensive 'Lite' version. Still, the point stands.

GURPS Lite is agruably "lite". Granted, they had to narrow the scope of the rules pretty severely. GL basically lets you create normal human beings, and that's about it.

 

[Voadam]

And then there's the equipment -- I find that as time consuming as anything else with high level characters, and I use Sean K Reynold's Gear Generator to speed things up.

I agree, particularly without having the wealth per npc level in the srd to reference.

I'll have to check that generator out. Is it on his site?

 

[der_kluge]

Why are we even discussing this? It's no secret that really high-level D&D PCs can take time to create (1st-level is cake, though). The point is what kind of reward you're getting for your effort. If I think the play experience of a game blows, I don't really care how fast I was able to create a PC (other than being glad that I only wasted so much time on it).

I had to go through two iterations of the build I did for my main Champions character, and each took a lot of time, even with HERO Designer software. That in no way has made me enjoy the two years I've been playing him any less.

As long as the process is enjoyable and the resulting play is fun, I could care less how long it takes to make a PC. Making PCs is half the fun.

I don't think a lengthy character creation process has anything to do with RL or RH actually. I was just disagreeing with Joshua that you could stat out a high level character quickly. That was my only point.