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D&D 5E Interesting talk with Mike Mearls (a few secrets slip too!)

Where has "Unlimited" come from? Nothing here is unlimited, nor is anyone suggesting it should be. Can you explain?

I believe he is referring to the champion, whose boosted critical chances have no cost or limit. It's an always there, unlimited "resource" if you want to think of it that way.

Whereas the battlemasters abilites come with a fuel tank. Personally if it became a problem in play I think I would just let a Bm turn inspiration dice into "superiority" dice, thus reward him for good play and allowing other players to feed him if they thought it was valuable.

BTW is it just me or is "superiority" a really stupid name? Why not tactical or battle dice?
 
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The game/GM has to specifically reward those forms of play that they want to specifically encourage. If you want to encourage tactical play, you need to reward tactical play. If you want to put emphasis on the longer game, you need to reward strategic play. If you want folks to laugh a lot at the table, you need to reward humorous play. From what we've been told, D&D at this time isn't specifically encouraging either tactically simple or complex play. The design goal seems to have been to allow for both - everyone's welcome in D&D!
I agree with your point here. I'm just struggling with how it's in the DM's purview to reward tactical play if that reward isn't already within the game rules. Do you give out Inspiration points for making the right maneuver pick?

Now we get the problem of measuring "Expected Contribution", which is not well defined here. "Contribution" is a slippery concept, especially when you start getting into characters who are designed not to do damage themselves, but to enable others to do damage.
Sure, it's pretty damn impossible to measure precisely. But battles come down to two basic considerations; you're either knocking off the opponent's hit points or you're preventing them from knocking off yours. The champion presents a pretty simple baseline, because he pretty much does damage. A battlemaster who's giving buffs to other players is more complicated to determine, because of the variation in party composition.

I'm working under the assumption that the system isn't designed to reward one of these kinds of play over the other. So, the tactically complex character is there, for players who find tactical play rewarding, in and of itself. Again, like for me doing a sudoku puzzle is sometimes amusing, in and of itself, without comparing my performance on the puzzle against anyone else's.
No, but the tactical player is going to compare two subclasses to each other. I'm not worried about player A, who loves tactics, comparing herself to player B, who doesn't. I'm worried about player A weighing the options between battlemaster and champion and discovering that the battlemaster is strictly inferior to the champion in what they can contribute, unless the battlemaster is played perfectly.

What I'm saying is you can't have an option to attract tactical players by saying "Look, it's so shiny with all these maneuvers!" and not expect them to measure it and say "Yea, it has some maneuvers, but the champion still does twice as much damage. I'm choosing that." One of the main characteristics of a tactical player is that they're going to look at the results, not just the process.

As if a tactically minded player wasn't intending to play well all the time anyway, regardless? If the fighter wasn't there to compare to, was the tactically-minded player expecting to slack off, and not think much about tactics? Of course not! This person enjoys playing the rules, regardless of what other players are doing, and should be expected to do so. Rewarding a player for doing better than another that they're *always* better than isn't so much kudos to the one as it is a bias against the other.

We commonly say that D&D is a cooperative game. This means isn't a competition between the players. If I am to reward a player, it shouldn't be for outdoing another player, but for outdoing *themselves*.
Again, it has nothing to do with a player A vs player B. It has to do with class A vs class B. It's about making your choice as a tactical player of what to play. It's about being aware that to a tactical player, results matter. It's not just about having complexity for complexity's sake.
 


Where has "Unlimited" come from? Nothing here is unlimited, nor is anyone suggesting it should be. Can you explain?

Unlimited vs. Limited-Use. Meaning, mechanically, at-will/automatic vs. short or long rest recharge. If an ability is limited-use-before-a-recharge, that adds a tactical dimension to it (do I use it now, or later), so if tactics is what you're angling for, something that is short or long rest recharged would be more appealing than something that is used whenever you want or is used based on a random die roll. Meaning that a tactical player opts into short-rest-recharge abilities because these are more tactical and thus ENJOYS the psychological play of "Do I use it now and not have it later or do I save it for later and muddle through right now?" Someone who doesn't like that question isn't as interested in tactical considerations, and so goes for ol' reliable Critspam McGee.

The DM designs the adventure and circumstances, and is the main person responsible for whether Short Rest occur.

My position is that the DM doesn't dictate when rests happen (ie, it is the players that declare the action), she merely gets to veto it (ie, she can say "the smell of your cookfire attracts goblins"). Which means that the main people responsible are the party members, who decide for themselves when they want to try and take a rest. The DM merely sets the context in which that can occur (and she may set it so that short rests cannot occur). In the same way that the DM sets the context in which attack rolls or climb checks can occur.

Party members should generally have an indication of what circumstances will allow them to take an hour rest (DMs who constantly spring ambushes are jerks just like DMs who constantly take you captive or have the villain escape or have the NPC's death be inevitable are jerks), and they'll be able to plan their approach to the adventure's goal around that indication. If you can't take an hour break in the middle of a goblin warren, then you're going to approach that warren with the idea of "lets not fight ALL of them before lunch, okay?"

Your "Long Rests must be truly a hassle" doesn't make sense. They're an "end of day" thing and can be achieved by leaving the area of danger, which is unlikely to be practical in the same way for Short Rests.

The context for the long rests being a hassle is that if you can't take an hour rest, you REALLY can't take an 8-hour rest. So if you can take one, what might prevent you from taking the other?

You say that it's impractical to leave the area of danger for a short rest, but why?

Why can't you leave the goblin warren for an hour, or hole up in the goblin store room for an hour, or break for lunch on the road for an hour?

I mean, even armies on the front lines in World Wars could find some time to eat or sleep or write a letter home. And they didn't have Leomund's Tiny Hut. If the fighter needs a breather, lets stick the elf as lookout in this quiet corner of the dungeon where the goblins don't go because there was an ogre here (until our swords had something to say about that) and take a breather.

In fact, that's part of what I *like* about the longer short rests. It is something you have to actively go DO, it is an action the party takes, and it has to be considered in the context of achieving the party goal. If your desire is a smash-and-grab geurilla strike to grab the MacGuffin and go, you need to maybe sneak past some encounters you'd otherwise tackle head on because you can't tackle them all before you need to rest (thus allowing them to escape). If your desire is to exterminate all of them like it's some sort of goblin progrom, you maybe make quick forays into the warrens and post lookouts who can let you know if they're trying to flee (thus wearing them away over time, like a siege). It's adventure-based design at work, where the goal isn't to Have Encounters, but rather to Do A Thing, and the encounters are just some steps on the road to that, sometimes steps you want to (or have to!) skip.

It's also likely worth mentioning that 5e is generally much more comfortable with characters not being able to use their special shiny things than 3e or 4e was (while not being quite as negative as 2e could be). Even if no one could ever take a short rest, and no one ever used a limited-use ability, the party would still probably be able to muddle through most of their adventuring day and still even retain a flavor distinction between high-damage/high-accuracy weapon users and low-damage + special effects spell users.

Ultimately, I don't expect every character with short-rest-recharge powers to hoard them for fear of not being able to have their character take a lunch break. Rather, I expect that this real "down time" cost will make them think beyond the individual encounter into the adventure context in general, and that's something I want in my games. And for those that don't, I'm sure "a short rest is 5 minutes" is part of what WotC expects to happen, even if they made a different default choice.
 
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No one's talking about Mike's mention of official conversion guides for previous D&D editions? I find this much more exciting than whether one version of fighter will do slightly more damage than another. :p

I know there's been talk of conversion guidelines before, but I don't recall it being confirmed that WotC intends to produce official guides. It makes a lot of sense given their goals for 5e, and their sales on D&D Classics. I'm really looking forward to this!
 

No one's talking about Mike's mention of official conversion guides for previous D&D editions? I find this much more exciting than whether one version of fighter will do slightly more damage than another. :p

I know there's been talk of conversion guidelines before, but I don't recall it being confirmed that WotC intends to produce official guides. It makes a lot of sense given their goals for 5e, and their sales on D&D Classics. I'm really looking forward to this!

Could not have said it better myself.
 

I agree with your point here. I'm just struggling with how it's in the DM's purview to reward tactical play if that reward isn't already within the game rules. Do you give out Inspiration points for making the right maneuver pick?

Noting that "tactical play" goes well beyond picking the right maneuver each round from your character sheet, you come to the point after the fight, "Dude, that was an awesome battle plan, and you were just amazing on the battlefield, so you guys took nary a lick of damage! Here, have inspiration!" :)

Sure, it's pretty damn impossible to measure precisely. But battles come down to two basic considerations; you're either knocking off the opponent's hit points or you're preventing them from knocking off yours. The champion presents a pretty simple baseline, because he pretty much does damage. A battlemaster who's giving buffs to other players is more complicated to determine, because of the variation in party composition.

Yes, and in the next paragraph, this point becomes very important...

No, but the tactical player is going to compare two subclasses to each other. I'm not worried about player A, who loves tactics, comparing herself to player B, who doesn't. I'm worried about player A weighing the options between battlemaster and champion and discovering that the battlemaster is strictly inferior to the champion in what they can contribute, unless the battlemaster is played perfectly.

How in the world is the tactical player coming to that conclusion, given the difference in operation you note above? How can one be "strictly" better, when they do different things? You say you don't know how to measure it, so how is this player doing so?

What I'm saying is you can't have an option to attract tactical players by saying "Look, it's so shiny with all these maneuvers!" and not expect them to measure it and say "Yea, it has some maneuvers, but the champion still does twice as much damage. I'm choosing that."

The person who is engaging in long-term build options is a *strategic* player. The one making detailed decisions at runtime is the tactical player. These are two different things. A player may be strategic or tactical, or both. But they aren't always both.

Past research, in fact, says they are quite different*: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/BreakdownOfRPGPlayers.html

For strategic players, we should have things like the Champion, and feats - build a character that reliably performs well in play in some focused way. For tactical players, we should have characters with many choices in play. I am not sure we need to specifically support the person who wants to be better than everyone all the time - "I do the best reliable damage, *and* I get to show off my tactical prowess beyond that! Woohoo!" That's sounds like it is drifting into spotlight hog territory.




*I am not convinced that the labels "Thinker" and "Power Gamer" should not be reversed, here, but that's a fiddly bit of naming - the real issue is that there are clusters, with tactics and strategy as somewhat diametric elements.
 

No one's talking about Mike's mention of official conversion guides for previous D&D editions? I find this much more exciting than whether one version of fighter will do slightly more damage than another. :p

I know there's been talk of conversion guidelines before, but I don't recall it being confirmed that WotC intends to produce official guides. It makes a lot of sense given their goals for 5e, and their sales on D&D Classics. I'm really looking forward to this!

Could not have said it better myself.

That is because there's a separate thread on it.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...guides-fomr-ALL-editions-are-coming-this-fall!
 

Noting that "tactical play" goes well beyond picking the right maneuver each round from your character sheet, you come to the point after the fight, "Dude, that was an awesome battle plan, and you were just amazing on the battlefield, so you guys took nary a lick of damage! Here, have inspiration!" :)
So, yes? :)

How in the world is the tactical player coming to that conclusion, given the difference in operation you note above? How can one be "strictly" better, when they do different things? You say you don't know how to measure it, so how is this player doing so?
It's hard to measure with any sort of precision, sure. But it's not hard to note quantitative differences in effectiveness. Look at comparisons between the 4e vampire and the 4e ranger. That's the sort of differentiation I'm worried about. I actually really like the 4e vampire, because it oozes flavor, but I have a really hard time choosing it in a game that goes beyond mid-Heroic.


The person who is engaging in long-term build options is a *strategic* player. The one making detailed decisions at runtime is the tactical player. These are two different things. A player may be strategic or tactical, or both. But they aren't always both.
I'm aware of the distinction between strategic and tactical. But even tactical players make considerations when they build their character. I don't know too many players of any sort who simply want to play whatever pre-gen is put in front of them.

Actually, the article mentions almost the exact opposite point.
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/BreakdownOfRPGPlayers.html said:
All of the people who indicated a strong interest in RPGs identified eight "core values" that they look for in the RPG experience. These 8 core values are more important than the segments; that is, if these 8 things aren't present in the play experience it won't matter if the game generally supports a given segment's interests - the players will find the experience dissatisfying. These 8 core values are:

Strong Characters and Exciting Story
Role Playing
Complexity Increases over Time
Requires Strategic Thinking
Competitive
Add on sets/New versions available
Uses imagination
Mentally challenging

In other words, even the players who enjoy a "Tactical Focus" still want to be challenged to use Strategic Thinking; likewise, even the Combat Focus player wants a Strong Character and Exciting Story. A person who segments into a "Tactical Focus" segment, when compared to the population as a whole is likely to be perceived as someone who enjoys Strategy; only when compared to the population of people who enjoy RPGs is the difference visible between the hard-core strategic players and the slightly less hard-core tactical players.

For strategic players, we should have things like the Champion, and feats - build a character that reliably performs well in play in some focused way. For tactical players, we should have characters with many choices in play. I am not sure we need to specifically support the person who wants to be better than everyone all the time - "I do the best reliable damage, *and* I get to show off my tactical prowess beyond that! Woohoo!" That's sounds like it is drifting into spotlight hog territory.
But I think you're missing my point here. I'm simply saying that for the tactically-minded player, the fact that the Battlemaster gets more available tactics isn't enough. It also has to perform at a comparable level to a Champion played by the same player. Obviously, there are numerous caveats here, the most obvious being that effectiveness is really tough to measure. Right now, I have no reason to think that the Battlemaster won't be awesome and be my personal choice for my Fighter.. But, to my mind, the expectation above is what it must fulfill to be considered as successful.
 

So much worth quoting in that interview! I hope WotC's plans come to fruition, especially in the area of diversification rather than flooding the game with new rule-books, and the idea that a new expansion or mega-adventure should be an event, not just a date in the calendar.

Mearls and the gang are making it very easy to get behind this edition. Kudos to the lot of them. :)


Yeah, i liked everything he said, and i really, really hope 5e does avoid the splatbook path of 3e. What would be neat is a huge mega-splatbook that just covers freaking everything, all classes and races and is a massive hardback and year-worthy event. Like, 2 years from now or something.
 

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