tommybahama
Adventurer
I shall assume you are socially retarded and not intentionally acting like a troll.
I shall assume you are socially retarded and not intentionally acting like a troll.
Laurefindel
Legend
[edit] removed quote inserted by mistake
To be fair, we don't need to know how the laws of nature work to be limited by said laws of nature. Newtonian physics does not explain why there is gravity, but it explains how gravity affects our world.
Now, magic by definition breaks the laws of nature, but it doesn't mean it cannot be governed by its own laws. These laws of magic, whatever they are, don't have to be explained to be known, or at least limit what spells can do (if only for internal coherence).
D&D's magic is not far off. The laws of magic are not spelled out but you can see certain patterns already.
Why do most spells don't last more than 1 minute, and if they do, it's either 10 minutes or 1 hour (or 24h). Why do you need to cast the same spell every day for exactly 1 year to become permanent?
The answer is off course; because it's convenient for game design and play execution. But your character could wonder why and work all their life to make spell X last 2 minutes instead of 1. Why can sorcerer do it and wizards can't? But even then they can't go over 24 hours...
If one looks more closely, there are many hints as to what the laws of magic are in D&D; it's actually rather consistent. And then comes a spell that contradict the assumed rule. Whoever created than spell managed to break one of the rules of magic, perhaps unknowingly.
To be fair, we don't need to know how the laws of nature work to be limited by said laws of nature. Newtonian physics does not explain why there is gravity, but it explains how gravity affects our world.
Now, magic by definition breaks the laws of nature, but it doesn't mean it cannot be governed by its own laws. These laws of magic, whatever they are, don't have to be explained to be known, or at least limit what spells can do (if only for internal coherence).
D&D's magic is not far off. The laws of magic are not spelled out but you can see certain patterns already.
Why do most spells don't last more than 1 minute, and if they do, it's either 10 minutes or 1 hour (or 24h). Why do you need to cast the same spell every day for exactly 1 year to become permanent?
The answer is off course; because it's convenient for game design and play execution. But your character could wonder why and work all their life to make spell X last 2 minutes instead of 1. Why can sorcerer do it and wizards can't? But even then they can't go over 24 hours...
If one looks more closely, there are many hints as to what the laws of magic are in D&D; it's actually rather consistent. And then comes a spell that contradict the assumed rule. Whoever created than spell managed to break one of the rules of magic, perhaps unknowingly.
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No, I am lamenting how our educational systems allow folks to come out of school with questions like that. Our society is based on science and technology, and folks need to know more to make reasonable decisions in the society.
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
I guess the litmus test for me would be if you could make up any arbitrary spell...or maybe take any spell from the D&D spell list...and say, "Does this work with the system?" If the answer for every spell is "yes" then it's just hand-waving (in my opinion).
And even if the answer is "no" for reasons other than the logic of the system (e.g., "The rules say you can't teleport" or "There's no such thing as necrotic in this RPG") then it doesn't really count.
I'm actually a little surprised there hasn't been more "Oh, you should look at RPGs X, Y, and Z." Either I'm still doing a bad job explaining what I mean, or it's even more rare than I thought.
So, I dunno what sort of setting you're looking at, but there are some interesting ideas in Unknown Armies--types of magic that are internally consistent and more or or less coherent. There's also REIGN, which has different sorts of magic by culture, in a fantasy world. Maybe you can extract the ideas from the systems, there.
I think I understand what you are talking about. I think what you are asking for is pretty rare for a variety of reasons. Most games and game worlds do not have a lot of space for characters to be making up entirely novel effects to begin with.
From a game world perspective, if you have a fantasy world that's had magic in it for centuries or millennia... you would expect people in the past to have rather solidly covered the ground of what magic can do. Your character is standing on the shoulders of giants, and all that.
From a game design perspective, truly novel effects are hard to adjudicate in a balanced manner, so the game designers do that work for you, and address what magic can accomplish for you before play begins.
Edit... also, coming up with an internally consistent magical system is very hard. Pretty much any system you come up with will likely have a major exploitable hole in it, and if you allow players to use the logic of the magic system to justify new magical effects, they will find the unbalanced ones.
(See canonical example of a White Wolf Mage turning a powerful Vampire into a lawn chair, arguing that since the vampire is not living, it is mere "matter", and converting some base matter into other base matter is well-accepted magic in the system).
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Len
Prodigal Member
I was going to suggest W.O.I.N. too. But, I'm pretty sure I don't know what exactly you're asking for.
GURPS Thaumatology and its follow-up books might be of interest to you. It's more about how to build a magic system than a fully worked example, though some of the follow-ups tackle specific angles (e.g., Chinese Elemental Powers). I tend to run far more basic fantasy games with D&D-style spells, so I haven't experimented with most of these options. I know many people, however, who speak highly of these options and have used them to build magic systems that more closely emulate various historical and fictional models.
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
Even in fiction, it's pretty rare. Fantasy tends to prefer mysterious and fairy-tale effects to building out a magic system out of core principles.
The only RPG examples I can think of would be Mage in its various versions, and the Mistborn RPG (since it's based on Brandon Sanderson's books, and he's probably the most well-known author who writes books based on detailed, limited magical systems.)
I know the Spheres of Power kickstarter was posted here a few days back, that's the closest analogue I can think of to a principle-based magic system that would work for a D&D style game.
Baron Opal II
Legend
Well, that you have to design.
So, the Valoric Hemalurges all have spells based on entropy, theft, corrosion, and dominion. They don't have the ability to non-harmfully affect living things, at least not before they have taking something from another. That's because the foundation of their magic is plundering the tomb of an undead god and listening to its whispers.
The Eidonic sorcerers have skill over transmutation, lightning, flight, and heal amazingly quickly, but they cannot teleport or summon beings. That's because their powers are really super-science effects from having their blood replaced by a nano-swarm.
Find interesting themes to combine, and make a logical structure out of it.
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