D&D 5E Intiative Score (DMG variant rule)

[dave2008]

..., and ditch the hard coded action economy.

What do you mean by hard coded action enconomy. Are you advocating a Hackmaster style initiative systeM.

Personally, I found standard cyclic can be quite fast paced and exciting if your require your players to do everything in 30 seconds. That means 30 seconds to decided, roll to hit, and roll and declare damage. That keeps fairly dynamic feeling at our table. That being said, I have been interested in a Hackmaster type system.

 

[dave2008]

This gives a huge amount of weight to Dex for initiative. It's actually just Dex order.

I already think Dex should be removed from initiative but at least in the default system it doesn't have a huge impact.

There will be a lot of ties too which kind of defeats the purpose.

You could go the PF2e approach and let other attributes be used for initiative. I think that makes some sense

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

You're welcome!

I also dig the idea of @Jediking to bump up the initiative score for boss monsters. That's something I hadn't thought of and will definitely use.

Well, well, well, I'm always looking for new ways to roll less die as a DM. This is an auto-add ! THANKS!

 

[atanakar]

You're welcome!

I also dig the idea of @Jediking to bump up the initiative score for boss monsters. That's something I hadn't thought of and will definitely use.

Good idea, I already give an initiative bonus to boss monsters. I see it as a «role feature».

 

[atanakar]

I'm a proponent of round by round random group initiative. I'd like to see 6E go back to this, a longer round, and ditch the hard coded action economy. Yes I know I'm wishing for a lot, but nothing makes combat more static and boring in (any version) of D&D than modern cyclic initiative, 6 second rounds and hard codified action economy.

Are you saying you prefer one initiative roll per side per round? Side A then Side B? I was glad to leave that behind decades ago. It led to so many arbitrary TPKs during our B/X period. Monster can get two consecutive rounds of attacks if they are Side B then Side A. It was very difficult to manage as a DM. I had to constantly fudge the To hit and Damage results of monsters to prevent random TPKs. Not a good way to play D&D in my book. Individual initiative is an optional rule in the B/X rule set. As soon as I saw that we switched.

[edit] Side initiative is an optional rule of 5e. See page 270 of the DMG. No need for a 6e if that is what you are talking about.

 

[Nebulous]

Not in 5E I have done it. But I have run a bunch of sessions in 3.0 using the starter set which uses the same simplified initiative score. I find cyclic initiative boring as hell, and this variant even worse. IME it also keeps players less engaged because they know X amount of people have to go before it's their turn again. :grabscellphone:

I'm a proponent of round by round random group initiative. I'd like to see 6E go back to this, a longer round, and ditch the hard coded action economy. Yes I know I'm wishing for a lot, but nothing makes combat more static and boring in (any version) of D&D than modern cyclic initiative, 6 second rounds and hard codified action economy.

I kind of agree. They need a more dynamic system or at least initiative that has some strategy to it, not just rote cyclic action. I have fiddled with some systems, namely card based initiative, which I really liked, but it didn't add the level of strategy I wanted. It added speed and tension because every time a card is pulled a random PC/NPC acts each round, so you always had to be on your toes.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I kind of agree. They need a more dynamic system or at least initiative that has some strategy to it, not just rote cyclic action. I have fiddled with some systems, namely card based initiative, which I really liked, but it didn't add the level of strategy I wanted. It added speed and tension because every time a card is pulled a random PC/NPC acts each round, so you always had to be on your toes.

I like the quicken house-rule we have been using in one of our games. It is pretty simply and gives some choice that can impact tactics and play.

Here's the idea if you're interested:

When a player rolls initiative, he chooses whether or not to quicken his roll. If he does, he rolls 2d20 for Initiative (adding them) instead of 1d20. On his turn, he can take an action, a bonus action, OR move. He cannot do more than one thing. After all other turns are resolved, on initiative count 0 he takes his remaining actions/move/ or whatever he din't do before.

Ex. A Fighter 7 is already fighting a monster, so he doesn't need to move, but his HP is low and using his Second Wind is a priority since otherwise he fears he won't survive the monster's attack if it goes first. So, the player decides to quicken his Initiative and will only take his bonus action on his turn. The player rolls 2d20, getting a total of 32 with modifiers, and uses his Second Wind as his bonus action. Later on, the monster attacks. At the end of the round, the Fighter now gets to take an action and move if he chooses. He decides to disengage and move away since help arrived.

So, what is the benefit? Well, with normal initiative, he might have lost and gone down on the monster's attack.

Obviously, this system works best if you roll initiative each round.

 

[JeffB]

What do you mean by hard coded action enconomy. Are you advocating a Hackmaster style initiative systeM.

I don't know the HM system.

My issue is the entire 3.X/PF/4/5E system

Cyclic initiative
Round length of 6 seconds
Nearly everything tied to "until your next turn"
Hard codified categories-Actions, bonus actions, reactions, move, etc.

If you deviate from this by utilizing a round by round init- you screw up half of the monster abilities or the player's. I cast a spell, it's effect lasts until your next turn- then you roll highest initiative, and go. Now the effect ends possibly before it had any real effect. The next time, it may end up working twice as good. In T/OSR games, most things last a number of rounds, not "until your next turn" and the system is designed around "rounds".

The 6 second round also kills it for me-I've used this example before, but years ago I had one of my kid players (who was not particularly creative) come up with a fun, cinematic, dramatic attack move. Unfortunately it did not fit whatsoever into the "action system" and I had to nix it. In pre WOTC D&D games I simply could have said, no problem, called for one or at most two rolls and adjudicated the whole thing, and whether the kid rolled great or poorly, the character could theoretically have done everything including the amount of movement during the course of a one minute combat round- heck even 30 seconds, Instead it ended up being a big downer as I explained how it wasn't possible using these rules.

@atanakar Yes, I'm saying group initiative, rolled round by round. The 5E side variant does not roll round by round, only once at the beginning of combat.

@Nebulous - The BEST cyclic initiative I have found is the system from FFG Star Wars- where players all roll, and get a "player slot" on the numbers they roll- In what order they go is up to the players when a player initiative slot comes up- this way they can coordinate moves/attacks.

Frankly, I prefer Dungeon World over it all- No initiative, no rounds, all taken care of in the fiction, But obviously no workie with D&D.

 

[Nebulous]

@Nebulous - The BEST cyclic initiative I have found is the system from FFG Star Wars- where players all roll, and get a "player slot" on the numbers they roll- In what order they go is up to the players when a player initiative slot comes up- this way they can coordinate moves/attacks.

Frankly, I prefer Dungeon World over it all- No initiative, no rounds, all taken care of in the fiction, But obviously no workie with D&D.

I'm really hoping to find a new D&D imitative system. Shadow of the Demon Lord has a good one but it might be tricky porting to 5e. Easier to just play SotDL. I'm going to be running my first Dungeon World campaign on Roll20 soon so Im looking forward to that. It will be a breath of fresh air to have no initiative!

I'm also a fan of swapping out Dex for Perception or Intelligence, it just makes sense. Or ideally, like you said, just dumping the whole cycle and doing it more with the fiction.

 

[JeffB]

I'm going to be running my first Dungeon World campaign on Roll20 soon so Im looking forward to that. It will be a breath of fresh air to have no initiative!

Think of it like an action movie- There are no rounds- Unlearn what you have learned Switch cameras a lot whenever it would add tension- jump around from PC to PC a lot and leave "cliffhanger" moments when switching- whatever ups the "OH $&#@" factor