Introducing a new group to PF2 vs. 4E?

[TheSword]

I think you should take the plunge and run them through WFRP 4e. All your worries about challenging them will go out of the window.

You’ve wanted to run The Enemy Within for a long time and Shadows over Bogenhafen is almost the ideal starter adventure for RPGs. Wean them off the pure combat of 5e and get them roleplaying more.

I know there were issues originally with complexity but the new rules they released made it much more accessible.

 

[Retreater]

What were the issues with A5e?

I suspect my issues were largely because I was trying to run a hybrid of 5e and A5e.

• Spell descriptions were different from what the 5e book said and A5e said. This sometimes caused compatibility issues.
• Ranger spells didn't exist in A5e.
• The loot given out in a 5e adventure was too much for the magical item economy of A5e.

I've not played it or read the rules, but I've seen comments that it isn't a supplement to WotC core 5e but a replacement for it that is capable of running WotC published material with minor tweaks. Maybe a clean start with a new campaign solely using A5e is what you need? From previous posts, it sounds like your group (if this is the same one) really enjoys 5e and getting them to play something else is going to be a tough sell so maybe another flavor of 5e is the right path.

Maybe? But if I'm honest, I think the well of 5e is so poisoned in my mind, I'm not sure if it's salvageable - not by A5e, 2024 revision (aka OneD&D), or Tales of the Valiant (aka Project Black Flag).
The Encounter math doesn't work because the monster math doesn't work. The monster math doesn't work because the player character math doesn't work.
A couple other gripes...

• Bounded Accuracy makes level not matter except for Hit Points (and spellcasting.)
• Dead levels are boring.
• Level 1 characters are too weak.
• Flanking is overpowered. Combat maneuvers are pointless.
• The action economy is confusing (Bonus actions are a major sticking point)

 

[Retreater]

I know there were issues originally with complexity but the new rules they released made it much more accessible.

"New rules" since when? I've tried it several times since the 4E release.

 

[thullgrim]

"New rules" since when? I've tried it several times since the 4E release.

I’m guessing it’s a reference to Essentials.

When I run 4e I drop the feat taxes and just let them have the math fix feats for free at 1st level.

As I recall the online tools have the errata baked in already so that won’t be an issue. Iif it turns out you need the WotC 4e errata PDFs let me know. I can help with that.

Personally I’d run core 4e PHB 1/2 with errata and math fixes. Allow materials from the arcane/martial/divine/primal sourcebooks and call it a day. I can see limiting things to just PHB1/2 though, with a math fix feats allowed.

I really like some of the Scales of War stuff but would probably run Chaos Scar + Season of the Serpent.

 

[Retreater]

I’m guessing it’s a reference to Essentials.

I think @TheSword was referring to 4E Warhammer Fantasy RP, not D&D.
There's too many acronyms floating around. Haha.

 

[TheSword]

"New rules" since when? I've tried it several times since the 4E release.

Group advantage is a game changer. Released with up in Arms. It makes Advantage a pot that everyone can contribute to in the party and then they can spend to gain bonuses, extra actions and tricks. It is really effective at encouraging teamwork and is really easy to track because it’s on one number for the party and one number for the foes. I nominate one player to keep track of it and then I just don’t worry about it. Everyone loves an extra attack and when you pass a test it really feels like you’ve contributed to the team.

Shields were fixed to simply add 2 Armour to every location without the off-hand -20 penalty nonesense.

Magic was fixed with Winds of Magic and Channelling was fixed with Archives of the Empire 3. Gives benefits to channelling, reduces the penalties and makes casting easier. While also changing overcasting so dart isn’t the best spell in the game.

Also I think the granular progression and the XP rewards for achieving story results and motivations would work well for your quite mercenary group.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

As someone who ran a lot of 4E and also recently ran a lot of PF2E, I would advise you stick with PF2E and just forget about 4E. My experience with 4E was that over time it grew increasingly broken and difficult to manage*, while PF2E was a smooth and consistent experience from levels 1 to 20, and as a GM I love the system. The downside to PF2E is the learning curve lies with the player, and a lot of my players really didn't enjoy it as much....chiefly because I think the game demands a lot of system mastery from the players, and I have several who are more casual in their approach. That can be handled in PF2E by simply taking a more delicate touch with your group. That said, PF2E provides an excellent challenge, often even when you think you aren't actually delivering it. 4E, on the other hand, started getting really weird after level 11 or thereabouts.


*Edit: also, you can only play 4E comfortably the way it is designed (maps/minis) and it is not easy to handle theater of the mind, consequences over time, or non-combat actions very smoothly. The game's strength is in fighting, and its makes every problem look solvable with a weapon. PF2E, on the other hand, can handle a wider approach to how you handle things at the table, though it covers traditional maps/minis quite well....but you can vary your style, handle long term consequences, and have interesting (even encouraged) non-combat actions and events without issue.

 

[thullgrim]

Shields were fixed to simply add 2 Armour to every location without the off-hand -20 penalty nonesense.

Magic was fixed with Winds of Magic and Channelling was fixed wit

I think @TheSword was referring to 4E Warhammer Fantasy RP, not D&D.
There's too many acronyms floating around. Haha.

Judging from the next post I'd say your right. I love WHFRP 4e and @TheSword is correct the changes in Up in Arms and Winds of Magic are great quality of life improvements.. When my Death on the Reik game resumes I'll be using them.