D&D General Introducing a Scientific Mindset to Dungeons and Dragons

[Oofta]

We will never be able to travel across the galaxy. That is Star Wars stuff. Pure fantasy.

Probably not, but a hundred years ago we never thought we'd split the atom.

 

[Clint_L]

That's fair, although I don't really view "magic can break the rules" as being counter to internal consistency. I was more referring to the idea that if it's been established in the setting that RW science doesn't apply, but then you suddenly introduce firearms that are based on RW science, then either something exceptional is occurring (someone opened a portal to Earth and is importing them from there) or your setting is no longer internally consistent.

If a player tried to invent RW guns, made all the right checks, and came to the conclusion that it's impossible in the setting, it would be crappy to suddenly introduce bad guys that invented guns by the exact same methods but succeeded. The player might conclude that the setting is nothing more than a one dimensional backdrop for that DM's whims. IME, many players find that sort of thing off putting, and I've seen players drop out of games because of it.

Internal consistency is important, IMO, so that players can interact with the setting in a coherent manner. Magic being the exception to that consistency isn't truly inconsistent, because it's an established fact of most fantasy settings that magic works that way (one might argue that this is one of major factors that makes magic... magic). Even magic has rules that follow internal consistency (for example, spells don't function in an anti-magic zone).

I don’t understand the statement “science doesn’t apply.” Science isn’t a thing, it’s a process. Gunpowder isn’t science. It’s chemicals arranged in a particular way.

In your example, if I didn’t want guns I would just not allow them and say that the technology hadn’t been discovered. The players using their real world knowledge of guns so that their characters could “discover” how to make them is egregious meta-gaming.

 

[Corinnguard]

We will never be able to travel across the galaxy. That is Star Wars stuff. Pure fantasy.

Over the years there have been a number of things we didn't think we were capable of doing. Consider all of the 'futuristic' tech that appeared in Star Trek that now exists in RL.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don’t understand the statement “science doesn’t apply.” Science isn’t a thing, it’s a process. Gunpowder isn’t science. It’s chemicals arranged in a particular way.

In your example, if I didn’t want guns I would just not allow them and say that the technology hadn’t been discovered. The players using their real world knowledge of guns so that their characters could “discover” how to make them is egregious meta-gaming.

I said "RW (real world) science doesn't apply". See my earlier post discussing a world constructed of essences rather than our RW natural laws. Certainly the scientific process could be applied to essences as well, but it wouldn't be RW science, meaning that a player's understanding of RW physics or chemistry wouldn't be applicable, irrespective of how much meta is allowed (although their understanding of the scientific process certainly could be applicable). In this case I was referring to RW scientific knowledge, rather than the scientific process by which it is derived. Colloquially, we use "science" to refer to both these things.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

We will never be able to travel across the galaxy. That is Star Wars stuff. Pure fantasy.

The Alcubierre drive proves that it is theoretically possible. You just have to have a...broader understanding of what "travel" means. Because you're correct that it is impossible to accelerate an object to such a speed that we could traverse the gulf between stars in anything remotely like tolerable time frames. The Alcubierre drive would not accelerate anything. It causes a change of location without kinetic energy. Of course, the drive has other theoretical problems to resolve first, but it shows how one can achieve something "impossible" by re-framing what, exactly, one is attempting to do.

 

[Lanefan]

We will never be able to travel across the galaxy. That is Star Wars stuff. Pure fantasy.

We won't, because we'll not live long enough. I'll not say the same about our maybe-distant descendants, however.

 

[Lanefan]

I don’t understand the statement “science doesn’t apply.” Science isn’t a thing, it’s a process. Gunpowder isn’t science. It’s chemicals arranged in a particular way.

In your example, if I didn’t want guns I would just not allow them and say that the technology hadn’t been discovered. The players using their real world knowledge of guns so that their characters could “discover” how to make them is egregious meta-gaming.

Or, as is the case with one of my current characters, you could vaguely follow the same sequence of reasoning that happened in the real world.

In my case, my character was once in a magical flight device, kind of like an open boat with fixed wings that had seats for a dozen or so people. Seeing that thing in action, and knowing things like birds and dragons can fly under their own power, he's become fixated on somehow inventing non-magical fixed-wing aircraft: he's sure it can be done!

That his characterization was already loosely based on Biggles before this doesn't hurt either.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

I specifically chose the term "scientific mindset" in this thread to try and communicate with the most people. I considered "modern knowledge", "common mindset", and even "scientific thinking", but I rejected each for one reason or another. When evaluating conversations about the scientific mindset we should consider how the common man would think about it.

This thread sprung from a conversation that was had in another thread where the participants were discussing the term "species" as a replacement for race. The discussion was focused on the clear classification of kinds of mythical creatures and the difficulty that hybridization of real creatures presents for such definitions. There was lots of talk about lions, tigers, ligers and tigons, oh my!

This kind of talk is why I'm not a fan of species as a term for race. It further invites a scientific mindset into the game of Dungeons and Dragons. Within the Community the scientific mindset also leads to other things--like the endless conversations about the impact of real world economics in a made up fantasy world. Or, the classic, giants crumpling under their own weight--another introduction of real world physics into a not real world.

Applying a scientific mindset to a fantasy world is fun! But, it is entertainment unto itself and is not neccessary for a fun game otherwise. I was hoping to explore how a scientific mindset has impacted the game we love in other ways both good and bad. For instance: Why is there no air in the astral plane? Why do spelljammers need a bubble of air around them? Is it because we apply our modern understanding of outer space to the astral plane?