Invincible Lich

[Greenfield]

Discern Location can find a person or an object. It gives an exact location, including which plane it's on.

That solves the problem of finding out where it is, and whether that dimension exists. And Find the Path tells you how to get there. It will even tell you the password needed to bypass magical protections, such as Alarms, Glyphs and/or Forbiddence spells.

The Lich might well protect himself from such detection, but protecting such an inanimate object might be more or a problem.

 

[Jacob]

Have you considered Secret Chest? No destroyed bags/holes, or having to deal with the logic of what happens to the items on the inside. Just a chest you let get lost in the Ethereal Plane, and the only way to retrieve it at some point is extraplanar expedition. While the chest is nonmagical, it says you can place wards upon it, which I assume means you place Nondetection and Invisibility on at some fashion, so...

Of course, using this method depends on how you go about where Lich reforms. The simplest answer that comes to mind is it forms on or near the phylactery. If so, then it's going to be in the plane where you placed it to be inaccessible.

Also, place phylactery in Portable Hole. Fold up Portable Hole and place it in stone of a castle. Only way to access phylactery is to destroy the castle of an ally who really wants to keep his castle. Earthquake? Yay, now you have the rubble of the whole castle to dig through. Congrats.

 

[Tharkon]

Uh... the folded cloth of the portable hole is still there, and just pretty much becomes the phylactery, because if the players destroy it...

The portable hole is inside the extradimensional space, the phylactery is lying next to it.

If you want good ways to protect a phylactery, just ask.
Nail it to the Sky.

Nail it to the sky? With what? And couldn't any creature with flight just retrieve it?

Discern Location can find a person or an object. It gives an exact location, including which plane it's on.

Discern Location requires having touched the object at least once. Multiple uses of Legend Lore probably could do it (The spell describes every character above 11th level as legendary, Liches are always 11th level or higher) but this would cost a few months. Still works if you use it before engaging the Lich.

That solves the problem of finding out where it is, and whether that dimension exists. And Find the Path tells you how to get there. It will even tell you the password needed to bypass magical protections, such as Alarms, Glyphs and/or Forbiddence spells.

Find the Path only works on the same plane, so it would depend on whether an extradimensional space qualifies for that. Since you can't use teleport to go in or out an extradimensional space according to the FAQ I assume Find the Path doesn't work either.

I would have to presume the contents of the portable hole are accessible via the Astral Plane in some form or fashion. It would be a difficult quest to find the pocket dimension and a way inside it, but if we're talking about a lich as an opponent for the PCs then we are talking about PCs who probably have the means to locate the phylactery. I would probably allow a limited wish to plane shift someone inside the pocket dimension once the PCs know such a place exists. Hence unless the lich took some other steps to guard its phylactery, good-bye lich.

Perhaps after you know the exact location and then go to that location with Astral Projection you would find a very small portal. Small enough that anyone who did not expect it to be there would overlook it.

BTW, thought it might be worth mentioning this Lich is hypothetical and I have not created it, nor am I facing it in any campaign. It's just an idea I came up with while reading about Liches and Extradimensional in the FAQ. In that entry it was an example of not wanting a Lich Archmage ambushing you from your own portable hole.

 

[Pergentile]

Nail to the Sky is a spell that pretty much puts something into orbit. It would be moving so fast, and in such a hostile environment, and would be so difficult to locate in that unimaginable amount of space around the earth, that it is about as safe as your phylactery could get. From that point, you'd just have to build yourself a giant orbital lazer...

 

[TheClone]

Find the Path, Locate Object... screw that. If there are PCs who are going to find it, this has to be a major quest. It simply screams for an elaborate adventure with planar travel and all the stuff everybody dreams about.

And if the lich is a PC, then there surely will be a group of NPCs going for this quest and the lich group has to stop them. Which forms a formidable adventure with planar travel and all the stuff everybody (except the lich player) dreams about. Nobody gets to play a lich without some effort to protect his phylactery.

This is really good fodder for any GMs plot machine. Couldn't be better. Although the PC lich might prove so difficult to handle in regular adventures that one might want to forbid this

 

[Scott DeWar]

ultamate safety deposite box: drop it into the river styx.

 

[Jack Simth]

Discern Location can find a person or an object. It gives an exact location, including which plane it's on.

Per Discern Location "To find an object, you must have touched it at least once."

That solves that problem (for the lich, anyway).

That solves the problem of finding out where it is, and whether that dimension exists. And Find the Path tells you how to get there.

per Find the Path: "The location must be on the same plane as you are at the time of casting."

That solves that problem (for the lich, anyway).

It will even tell you the password needed to bypass magical protections, such as Alarms, Glyphs and/or Forbiddence spells.

Lucky for the Lich, Symbol of Death (from which all other symbols inherit) doesn't actually require a password, and gives you the option of special conditions:

You can also set special triggering limitations of your own. These can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. Special conditions for triggering a symbol of death can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, Hit Dice, and hit points don’t qualify.

(Emphasis added)

So if you suddenly appear in an area guarded by one that triggers for everyone except the lich, well.... sorry.

Likewise, with the Glyph of Warding, the password is just "Typically" used. The spell also says:

Alternatively or in addition to a password trigger, glyphs can be set according to physical characteristics (such as height or weight) or creature type, subtype, or kind. Glyphs can also be set with respect to good, evil, law, or chaos, or to pass those of your religion.

So unless you're an undead Lawful-Evil lich of a particular height who worships Vechna, you might have a problem with that one of the Lich doesn't feel the need to be typical.

And with Forbiddance, the password is "At your option". It doesn't have to be there. As long as the Lich doesn't change alignment after casting the spell, he doesn't need to include one in this area he'd much prefer only he can be.

The Lich might well protect himself from such detection, but protecting such an inanimate object might be more or a problem.

Not really. The best way to stop indestructible lich shenanigans is to make a house rule that requires the lich visit the phylactery periodically. Something along the lines of 'must physically touch the phylactery at least once per day, or take lethal damage at the rates described in the starvation rules, which cannot be healed by any means until the lich does get to his phylactery' or some such.

Then the lich will always keep his phylactery reasonably nearby. It won't be beyond impassible barriers, it won't be held by a mook subjected to Imprisonment, it won't be overly difficult for the lich to reach when he's low on spells, and so on. It may very well still be warded to high heaven (or is that deep abyss?), but it'll always be reachable.

 

[Tharkon]

Not really. The best way to stop indestructible lich shenanigans is to make a house rule that requires the lich visit the phylactery periodically. Something along the lines of 'must physically touch the phylactery at least once per day, or take lethal damage at the rates described in the starvation rules, which cannot be healed by any means until the lich does get to his phylactery' or some such.

Then the lich will always keep his phylactery reasonably nearby. It won't be beyond impassible barriers, it won't be held by a mook subjected to Imprisonment, it won't be overly difficult for the lich to reach when he's low on spells, and so on. It may very well still be warded to high heaven (or is that deep abyss?), but it'll always be reachable.

Sounds like a reasonable house rule.
If you were really afraid of Liches as DM you could just make the complicated rituals needed for becoming them unknown to the players and anyone they come in contact with. Of course this will rule out any NPC Liches you might want to use.

I've got another idea, although many official articles call a Lich who keeps its Phylactery on its person stupid. What if the phylactery is a ring and its opponents have no idea that it is in fact a phylactery but think it's a magical item. The Lich might even have enchanted his phylactery to provide a bonus to anyone wearing it. Why would anyone destroy the magical ring they looted?

And then some nights later suddenly the Lich respawns next to them in their sleep, ready to retrieve his ring. Although perhaps a house rule based on the dracolich that requires a nearby corpse for respawning could make it less dangerous.

 

[Jack Simth]

Sounds like a reasonable house rule.

Thanks.

If you were really afraid of Liches as DM you could just make the complicated rituals needed for becoming them unknown to the players and anyone they come in contact with. Of course this will rule out any NPC Liches you might want to use.

Doable, but as you noted, this means you need to not actually use Liches yourself, as a DM... and they make such flavorful monsters....

I've got another idea, although many official articles call a Lich who keeps its Phylactery on its person stupid. What if the phylactery is a ring and its opponents have no idea that it is in fact a phylactery but think it's a magical item. The Lich might even have enchanted his phylactery to provide a bonus to anyone wearing it. Why would anyone destroy the magical ring they looted?

There's at least two reasons why this is impractical.

For one, it takes a lich 1d10 days to respawn, and a Lich is pretty much minimum CR 13 (11th level caster, +2 CR template). This generally means the party that kills one is going to be 11th or better... with likely access to Analyze Dweomer. So they kill the lich, loot his stuff, and identify it all the next day in a manner that pushes past most illusions to hide the nature of the item. Crunch. Sure, you *might* respawn before then... one in ten chance you'll respawn the next day... when most people will be ID'ing loot. Are you sure you want to risk that?

For another, there are a number of effects that'll take out your equipment as well as your body, or will just attack your equipment directly. Shoved into a pit of lava (or through a Prismatic Wall, or....), many area effects, disjunction, and so on. Plus there's always the natural-1 clause on saves, where the spell affects a random piece of equipment, as well. It is entirely possible that if you're wearing your phylactery, the party could take it out without knowing they did so.

There might be more that I'm not thinking about just yet, but those two spring immediately to mind.

 

[Luigiana]

Discern Location can find a person or an object. It gives an exact location, including which plane it's on.

That solves the problem of finding out where it is, and whether that dimension exists. And Find the Path tells you how to get there. It will even tell you the password needed to bypass magical protections, such as Alarms, Glyphs and/or Forbiddence spells.

The Lich might well protect himself from such detection, but protecting such an inanimate object might be more or a problem.

Discern Location does tell you how to bypass any security.

A discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies. To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it. To find an object, you must have touched it at least once.