IQ to INT equivalent

ArcOfCorinth said:
Ehh, it wasn't that close and we knew that. You're confusing the Bay of Pigs with the Missile Crisis, two separate things separated by a year.

no, i'm not confusing them. i'm not saying it was as close as the Missile Crisis. but it still had us on (to use a modern term) heightened alert. there are levels to all threats. for those in the service living in Turkey, it was very real during the Bay of Pigs.

just like Gary Powers being captured.

or ask some ex-pats living and working in Nicaragua about the US invasion of Grenada. or Panama.

visit Usepa Island in Fla. someday. the place the CIA used as a training ground for their invasion of Cuba.


IQ does not have to be a measure of your knowledge of history or language or mathematics. however, when you have been educated in the same place the test is given. some assumption are made as to your ability to learn these things over time.

they are not going to give a 5 year old the same exam they give a college student and expect them to score the same. even though, they may have the same IQ.
 

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As far as my take on D&D Int vs IQ. I don't think they are comparable. IQ is suppose to be a general overall mental ability rating. D&D Int seems more related to the skill learning and applying what you have learned to every day situations. It does not mean that you are better then some one else at solving problems or other things.

Combine this with the class skill points per levels and you have a better model of D&D skill development system. Classes that require a broader area of study like the rogue have more skill points per level then a narrowly focused class like the Fighter or Wizard.

It also solves the problem of PC with Int of 30 at 20th level. They are not world breaking genius, just people who are very used to having to learn new things constantly.
 



Capital M anyone?

I am kinda bothered about the 1 in 216 having an 18 INT. I thought it was 1 in 216 would have one 18, not necessarily INT. So having a character with INT=18 would be indeed a gifted intellectual and should stand out next to his peers. Am I wrong in assuming this?

I run my campaigns as though the PCs are exceptional people just based on their stats and the commoners expect great things from them and look to them for leadership or action in tough times. Although this seems as if I am thrusting the mantle of adventurer on them at times, it lets the players know how special they are and how low-powered (not low magic) the campaign world is.
 

Re: Capital M anyone?

MarauderX said:
I am kinda bothered about the 1 in 216 having an 18 INT. I thought it was 1 in 216 would have one 18, not necessarily INT. So having a character with INT=18 would be indeed a gifted intellectual and should stand out next to his peers. Am I wrong in assuming this?

Unfortunately, you are. The 1/216 comes from the number of combinations you get when rolling 3d6 (216), and the number of combinations that give you an 18 (1). The chance of having at least one 18 in any stat is almost 1/40 (if my quick calculations are correct...), and that's on 3d6. 4d6 drop lowest will give you a much better chance (but someone with more interest in probablility than I will have to tell us what that is exactly...)

But don't worry, your adventurers are sitll special enough - the chance of having the combination of higher-than-average stats that most adventurers have is probably a lot less than 1/216. :)
 
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Re: Capital M anyone?

MarauderX said:
I am kinda bothered about the 1 in 216 having an 18 INT. I thought it was 1 in 216 would have one 18, not necessarily INT. So having a character with INT=18 would be indeed a gifted intellectual and should stand out next to his peers. Am I wrong in assuming this?

Something's up with your math :-p

Odds of getting a 6 on 1d6 = 1 in 6 (for an even die)
Odds of getting 2 6's on 2d6 = 1 in 36 (for even sided dice)
Odds of getting 3 6's on 3d6 = 1 in 216 (ditto)

There are six stats, and the average person rolls 3d6 for each of them.

On average, out of every 36 stat blocks rolled, there will be 1 18.

Some will have 2 18s, others none. When you get into the 1 in a million range, you start seeing people with 3 18s pop up all over (I made an NPC generator to show this).

An 18 stands out, but if you roll a million 3d6 stat blocks, a 25 point buy character with 1 18 is seriously outclassed. Approximately .2% of the population not only has an 18 in the same score, but better scores elsewhere.

Seriously, someone who is one in a million is a truly amazing individual.

It's all about what makes a hero in your world, I guess. Perhaps those that can get by too easily never make the mark very often.
 

Re: Re: Capital M anyone?

mmu1 said:
Unfortunately, you are. The 1/216 comes from the number of combinations you get when rolling 3d6 (216), and the number of combinations that give you an 18 (1). The chance of having at least one 18 in any stat is almost 1/40 (if my quick calculations are correct...), and that's on 3d6. 4d6 drop lowest will give you a much better chance (but someone with more interest in probablility than I will have to tell us what that is exactly...)

I think the 1 in 40 is right, perhaps 1 in 41. It's not 1 in 36 because a lot of lucky bastards get 2 18s.

The chances of getting a 18 on a single 4d6 die roll are 1 in 74 IIRC. I could be wrong.

But don't worry, your adventurers are sitll special enough - the chance of having the combination of higher-than-average stats that most adventurers have is probably a lot less than 1/216. :)

Someone else did point buy totals, but on 1 for 1:

1 in a thousand: 83 points
1 in ten thousand: 89 points
1 in a hundred thousand: 93 points
1 in a million: 95 points
 

Garmorn said:
As far as my take on D&D Int vs IQ. I don't think they are comparable. IQ is suppose to be a general overall mental ability rating. D&D Int seems more related to the skill learning and applying what you have learned to every day situations.

I think Garmon is on the right track here. The D&D Int score isn't even really "Intelligence" as we normally use the word, it's just a rough approximation.

If you're going to use IQ x 10, then really, what's the point of bringing in IQ at all? Especially since most people don't know their IQ scores. IQ x 10 works ok if virtually everyone in your campaign world has an Int between 8 and 15, and it still gets the distributions wrong. I highly doubt that many people have created NPCs or PCs that are literally retarded or super-geniuses. D&D also does not use rules for severely retarded individuals. Fighters and Barbarians with an Int of 3 are still more or less functional, so their IQs aren't all that low.

Instead of converting Int scores into IQs, it's much better just to use IQ ranges. For example, Int of 16-18 is genius level, 14-15 is gifted, 12-13 is above average, 9-11 is average, 6-8 is slow on the uptake, 3-5 is barely functional.
 

Okay, this whole IQ thing is starting to bug me. Let's get a few things straight...

IQ, the so called "intelligence quotient" measures how well you do on IQ tests, and not much else. Despite the name, it does not measure a person's native intellectual ability or capacity.'

Some history is in order...

Back around the begining of the 20th century, some folks noticed something. Kids who scored well on certain tests tended to score well on other tests, and tended to get better grades in school. Now, if your intention is to identify ids who, for whatever reason, are at risk of falling behind in school, you can make good use of this fact. You can give diagnostic tests, identify kids who are at risk and keep tabs on them, and possibly identify their problems.

The identification of this correllation with "intelligence" is based on a few things. One is humanity's wish to keep things simple. Another is a misunderstanding of some particulars of statistical analysis. A third is a misunderstanding of one of the most basic idedas of statistics. And, finally, the people who originally made this identification had some nasty ideas on racism and eugenics that they wanted to push forwards.

For an in-depth discussion of all this, I can point you to a book, The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould. I'll summarize a bouple fo the points in brief...

The first is pretty obvious. We like things simple. Viewing "intelligence" as a single thing that can be ranked with one universal number is simple and attractive (especially to those for whom the number is high). Slap a number on a person - this one is smart, that one is dumb, this one is just that minute fraction smarter than another. You can line them all up, nice and neat, placing a value on each person. We like to be able to put simple values on things, even complext things like people...

The second is less obvious (and hard to get across without diagrams). If you plot out test scores as vectors in a particular way, you suddenly see that there seems to be a natural direction they all seem to be pointing. You put a graph axis in that direction, and use it to extract a measure. Call that measure "g" for "general intelligence". And voila, you have the basis for IQ.

Here's the error - it seems that there's a natural direction. But that seeming does not imply that the axis you laid down actually has a real, physical meaning. There are other choices of axes that are just as useful (if not moreso), from which you can extract other information.

Anyone who plays D&D with minis on a battlemap actually understands this. We tend to lay down a quare grid, oriented North-Sough and East-West. But we know that doesn't really mean that Tordek walks directly north more easily than he can walk east-by-southeast. We can rotate the grid under the figures to whatever is most useful. Heck, we can slide a hex grid under Tordek, and suddenly instead of two preferred directions, he has three (north-south and two diagonals)! The choice of grid is actually arbitrary, done for convenience rather than to show a real preference of the universe.

The third issue is a really basic tenet of statistics - correllation does not imply causation. The fact that we can measure a correllation betwen performance on a test and performance in a classroom does not mean we automatically know the cause of that correllation. Some people felt that the underlying cause was actual personal ability, so they used the terms "general intelligence" and "intelligence quotient". But that was their opinion, not an established fact.

What's in a name? Well, in this case, the names stuck. So, we are left with an old, outmoded idea we cannot shake - that the correllation between test scores says something about innate ability, rather than about environment and upbringing.

The last - the racial biases fo the people involved, I will not address, as that's getting into politics...

One final thing - some people have noted that some IQ tests are "only accurate within a given range". That's true. but it avoids the question - Accurate at what? It's not acuracy measureing intelligence. It's accuracy in predicting how well you will do on similar tests!
 

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