(IR) 1st ooc-thread of the 5th IR (open)

[Serpenteye]

That pushes the total to around 52,186,000 according to my rough estimates.
[sblock]
Name Population

Alhissa 7,000,000
Bandit Kingdoms 900,000
Bissel 300,000
Blackmoor 220,000
Bone March 620,000
Bright Lands 63,000
Celene 280,000
Dyvers 300,000
Ekbir 4,000,000
Frost Barbarians 300,000
Furyondy 3,000,000
Geoff 150,000
Gran March 510,000
Greyhawk 300,000
Highfolk 100,000
Ice Barbarians 300,000
Irongate 150,000
Iuz, Empire Of 1,400,000
Keoland 3,600,000
Ket 525,000
Lendore Isles 80,000
Lordship of the Isles 525,000
North Kingdom 4,200,000
Nyrond 4,200,000
Onnwal 170,000
Pale 700,000
Paynims, Plains of the 1,000,000
Perrenland 1,000,000
Pomarj 1,000,000
Ratik 280,000
Rel Astra & Solnor 720,000
Rovers of the Barrens 70,000
Scarlet Brotherhood (2x tens of thousands)
Sea Barons 300,000
Sea Princes 840,000
Shield Lands 60,000
Snow Barbarians 400,000
Sterich 290,000
Stonehold 110,000
Sunndi 250,000
Tenh 400,000
Tiger Nomads 200,000
Tusmit 600,000
Ulek, County of 740,000
Ulek, Duchy of 800,000
Ulek, Principality of 1,000,000
Ull 550,000
Urnst, County of 1,300,000
Urnst, Duchy of 1,400,000
Valley of the Mage 20,000
Veluna 1,200,000
Verbobonc 300,000
Wolf Nomads 240,000
Yeomanry 610,000
Zeif 3,400,000
=52,186,000
[/sblock]

This looks a lot more realistic to me. I'll probably increase the populations of the orc and goblinoid regions further, because they're such prodiguous breeders.

Those figures didn't include many of the minor territories; for example, only the Pomarj and Bone March of my territories are included, leaving out the bulk of the woods and mountains wherein the overwhelming majority of my population is. The question is, are those populations not included, being entirely uncivilized and mostly nonhuman, or were they included in larger regional figures?

They'll be assigned separately, I doubt they were included with the human countries.

Correct, just need to get in there and fix one or two things (right now the only "must-do" on my list is figuring out why the broken territories are broken)... That, and password-protect (or just hide) the editing portion, so people (other than me ) can't go messing with it (not that I expect anyone would, but no reason to make it an option, heh.)

(Not sure if Serp prefers a concrete, singular person to an intangible group of figures... In general, I'd prefer to have the Elder Brothers considered my "PC", but if it's important to have that classed individual attached to the title, Abbon Craylor, Rog17/Mnk8)

It's really up to what you would prefer yourself. The only thing that will be different is the role-playing.
As far as I'm concerned variation is a good thing.

Then I saw the implications for IC figures, so I thought that was important to mention too, going by the rules as they are some people are going to be suffering quite a bit from the long shadows of the hugely populated nations of Greyhawk no matter how many fat epic wizards they have in residence to resist oppression. And I don't want to suddenly find an NPC faction of The Empire of Lynn at my own southern doorstep populated with 10 billion massively breeding orcs who are laying railroads either, so a little bit of it's self-interest.

Since I've decided to include population as a factor in the IR in the first place, and decided that population would affect your production, there's no escaping the fact that big nations have the potential to be a lot more productive than small nations. It doesn't matter how many factories you build if you don't have the labourers to fill them.
Your people, as all those old slogans say, are your most important asset. Any faction can win the game but some of you are going to have to use different strategies than others. Perhaps a small but strong faction can not afford to let its big neigbour remain that populous...

Also, Serpenteye, since Queen Yolande is so beloved by Elves in general, would it be appropriate to, along with the general small levels of control possesed by the Church of Tritherion, to have general small levels of control in the various Elven places?

I think in general, IC should be measured fractionally, since the 200,000 population marker is kind of big and there will be lots of 5% infiltration.

You will have quite a considerable influence with the Elves in the Flannaes, but the Elves in the other parts of the world have their own mythology and their own heroes.

And yes, definately.

 

[Serpenteye]

Some info from the Grayspace book to chew on while I am waiting for a responce from Zelda...

Ginsel, the Crescent-shaped earth planet which I am suggesting to be our main base of operations, has a population of over 3 million humans, and a smattering of demi-humans. It is only 1/16th the surface area of Oerth, about 3 million square miles. 25% of that is water. It is mineral rich, more so per cubic foot than Oerth, (though Oerth's larger mass means that it has many more deposits).

In my proposed claims, this planet has been unified under our rule.

Whatcha think, serpenteye?

EDIT: Looks like most of those deposits are in the form of a hard, metamorphic , marble like rock, as well as many gems. The rich heavy metals and rare ores have already been mined, and are in use on the surface. Hense, a form of recycling is enforced.

EDIT 2: I think I'd like for all of our initial holdings to add up to between 3/4ths and 7/8ths the population/production of a major power. Does that sound about right?

3 million people is a decent amount. In addition to all your other claims your total population would be about 3'500'000 people, which is on the low side of high but considering your other advantages quite nice.

-
Do you have the figures on the other planetoids?

I know it seems low, but it's actually really high for a mostly elven-fey kingdom just guesstimating by looking at the examples provided by Celene (pop 140,000) and the Lendore Isles (pop 41,000) in the LGG. Sure, I've probably got more land than say...Ahlissa (pop 3,836,100) - but we're elves. If you think about it a lot of these factions aren't going to have a heaping load of people in them, just strong bases of demihumans and monsters. Humans and goblins/orcs could dominate the IR pretty easy with the population rules and no modifiers just because their population expectations are so high?

Personally I thought you did it intentionally, for a much slower game (where no faction could possibly dominate for several years (4 turns=year) of the game.

I suppose that if your population is only fey and elven your numbers make sense, but maybe the Kingdom of the Marches could contain a few million humans? I'll probably change the equation for the maximum IC to something less severe, but that won't change that population is a major factor in the game.

I'm just trying to do the 'busy-work' so as to help Serpenteye and Guilt Puppy.
'Busy-work' is just that: it takes little thought, but it takes a lot of time. Time which Serpenteye and Guilty Puppy need for the MUCH MORE rigorous and difficult work of working on the rules and creating the map.
And, of course, it helps for the Gamemaster to know who is playing, and who is playing what, and to have it all neatly arranged in front of him!

That it does, Edena

Fair enough, what about the flinty hills?

Yours .

Okay I went over your rules and have a few thoughts:

1.concerning the upgrading of armies.
while the upgrading rules are clear and understandible (as is most of the ruleset,way to go serpenteye), I do have a question concerning something not addressed. If there is an army which has been active for several turns and has been in several battles, is it possible for that army to spontaniously upgrade.

An army which has been in and survived several battles certainly has been killing things. This is really a yes/no question, I just want to know if it is possible. It doesn't really matter how (on your end) a army would qualify for upgrade (most likely you would look at an army and say "whoh, the've sure suffered let's give 'em an upgrade). If the ansewer is no then it does'nt matter.

It is possible, certainly. Not realistically for the army as a whole of course, just think on the amount of XP required, but for individuals in a particularly hard-fighting army.
It's not something I'm willing to write an equation for , but I'll rule on it when it comes up.

2. thoughts on infiltration:
first, on the funding of uprisings: Once you are in a position of subversion, can you raise armies from region, simulating suporting rebels. I would recomend, that if you were to allow this that you limit creation to militias, that there be a small PP cost, and that the rebel militias can not leave the region or be disbanded by the Attacking player (only by the defending player by spending PP, in effect agreeing to the rebels demands.)Furthermore a limit to the number of rebel militas needs to be imposed, perhaps one rebel milita per degree of subversion. Finally, a die role to determine if the rebells can be icited to uprise (after the PP are spent to incite them of course)

It will be possible to incite civil-wars, or riots, or terrorist activities, depending on your degree of influence and the situation in the target country.
Infiltration reflects numerous different things, both control over the officials of a territory and popular sympaties, or just general illegal activities and organized crime. Generally, a faction that has a minority control over a territory cannot mobilize a lot of the population to rise up and risk their lives. But, if the country in question is weak, if its armies are elsewhere and it has a tradition of oppressing its population cruelly chances are that you're going to be able to raise quite a powerful rebel force.
It's something I'll rule on when the situation arises.

Chances are, that if you try to stir up too much trouble the target country is going to overreact and brutally crush their troublesome population with force of arms, (at a cost of population PLs and IC), A desperate act, but not always unwise.
That's also something I'll rule on on a case to case basis, but maybe it should be mentioned in the rules...

Second, on the issue of misinformation:
What would be required to send "misinformation" to another player, without letting them know it's real source. Lets say that I as Nyrond want to let leak that Keoland is planning an attack against the Iron Leauge in hopes that the two will go to war. However I don't want either Keoland or the Iron Leauge to know that I sent the message. Should I pehaps send in my pre turn e-mail a section marked Misinformation. Then the Iron leauge has a spy in keoland territory, then a die role to determine if this gets misinformation included in the report. just a thought.

Third. Feeding a spy false info.
You said that a power can attempt to spot a spy in a turn and once detected they can excise them. However what if I should instead decide to keep the spy arround and only let him discover incorrect information. how would that be handled.

Finaly let me say what a wonderful job your'e doing and that I'm looking forward to getting squashed by Iuz and the great kingdom in turn one.

Interesting questions Bugbear...
Yes, if you've detected a spy in your own territory or in the territory of an other faction you can attempt to feed him misinformation. Chances are that he's still going to discover some true information and/or that he's going to find out he's being manipulated...
The cost of feeding a spy misinformation in your own territory is 0, but the cost of feeding a spy in someone elses territory misinformation is 1 (R)PL.

--
Thanks a lot, but I have a lot of help .

Oops, I didn't realize that the Circle of Eight was already the name of something. Sorry, I'll rename it, or else add/subtract a psion or two .

...

EDIT: I changed the name, so that should be clearer now, sorry for the trouble. Also, Edena, I think Serpenteye decided I didn't have the infiltrator ability, so that should be taken off and the changed name put up (sorry for the confusion).

No trouble.

Well, actually, I'm going to give you a choice. Either you get lots (relatively) of Elite and Epic PLs from your powerful psions (+ your other claims). Or you get the Infiltrator Trait and a smaller amount of Elite and Epic PL.

From the LGG:
Irongate: 71,000
Onnwal: 85,500
Idee: no information found
Sunndi: 125,000

Hmm...
(thanks)

Incidentally, Menzoberranzan (which was a big drow city on Toril) only had 20,000 drow. It had about 60,000 humanoids in addition.

So I'm guessing the 12 cities of Eclavdor (my power) all either have less than 20,000 drow, or just barely over 20,000 drow, plus whatever humanoid and undead populations exist in each.
Altogether, perhaps 180,000 drow live in the 12 cities of Eclavdor, averaging 15,000 per city. Another 500,000 to 1,000,000 humanoids live within the 12 cities, and somewhere around 5,000 servitor undead ranging from zombies to spectres (of course, that number can be increased quickly, if someone INSISTS on attacking the PEACEFUL drow of Eclavdor. )

The Vault of the Drow should have an official population count. Can't find it, though.

And then there's the population in the "countryside"... Or is that included in your figures?

Edena,

I think, according to Serpenteye, we just have ports in those citys. We do heavy trading in those citys though, I beleve.

We also claim a port in Ironclad, BTW.

Quite right. Greyhawk especially is a major city. Quite powerful in its own right (no more than fair, since the whole setting is named after the city).

You now have a port in Irongate, (?)

Here are those population figures from the LGG someone wanted, along with the Pop/200k for base IC.
[sblock]
Name Population = (Population/200k (Base IC Assuming Minimum =1))

· Alhissa 3,836,100 =19
· Bandit Kingdoms 475,200 =2
· Bissel 123,880 =1
· Blackmoor 110,000 =1
· Bone March 310,000 =1
· Bright Lands 26,500 =1
· Celene 140,000 =1
· Dyvers 128,000 =-1
· Ekbir 1,960,000 =9
· Frost Barbarians 144,500 =1
· Furyondy 1,481,800 =7
· Geoff 70,000 =1
· Gran March 254,600 =1
· Greyhawk 160,000 =1
· Highfolk 46,000 =1
· Ice Barbarians 158,800 =1
· Irongate 71,000 =1
· Iuz, Empire Of 700,000 =2
· Keoland 1,800,000 =9
· Ket 275,000 =1
· Lendore Isles 41,000 =1
· Lordship of the Isles 266,000 =1
· North Kingdom 2,618,200 =13
· Nyrond 2,618,200 =13
· Onnwal 85,500 =1
· Pale 395,000 =1
· Paynims, Plains of the 500,000 =2
· Perrenland 468,000 =2
· Pomarj 476,000 =2
· Ratik 138,500 =1
· Rel Astra & Solnor 380,000 =1
· Rovers of the Barrens 35,000 =1
· Scarlet Brotherhood (tens of thousands) =1
· Sea Barons 154,000 =1
· Sea Princes 420,000 =2
· Shield Lands 27,000 =1
· Snow Barbarians 209,000 =1
· Sterich 144,000 = 1
· Stonehold 55,000 =1
· Sunndi 125,000 =1
· Tenh 195,000 =1
· Tiger Nomads 104,000 =1
· Tusmit 273,000 =1
· Ulek, County of 370,000 =1
· Ulek, Duchy of 392,000 =1
· Ulek, Principality of 538,400 =2
· Ull 277,400 =1
· Urnst, County of 682,200 =3
· Urnst, Duchy of 751,850 =3
· Valley of the Mage 10,000 =1
· Veluna 668,800 =3
· Verbobonc 178,800 = 1
· Wolf Nomads 120,000 =1
· Yeomanry 305,900 =1
· Zeif 1,628,300 =8
[/sblock]

I see now that I severely overestimated the population in the Flannaes...
Ahlissa is about the size of France, and has a similar terrain and climate, but only a population of 3,8 million compared to France's late medieval-renaissance population of between 15 and 20 million people.
And, the population of the flannaes have had access to magic to make their lives safer and more free of disease and to have their crops enhanced... tsk, tsk, tsk Gary .

Ah, well. The populations will go up, and my equation for maximum IC will be changed.
Unnamed territories will get proportional populations.

The population of the Scarlet brotherhood, I assume, only includes actual members of the organization and not all of their slaves and civilians.

IC will definately be fractional, down to two decimals.

I've started a new thread in Rogue's Gallery for the PC's of the 5th IR, if you feel like it.

It's all good.

 

[Serpenteye]

That description is wildly amusing. I can't wait to play....

Me neither...

--
Observe that my last three posts are in the wrong order. It could get confusing...

 

[devilish]

Seems like a land-grab is going on. Serpenteye, will
this all balance out in the end ( I think population-wise, I
only have 2 points) or should I start claiming incongruous
areas?

 

[Serpenteye]

Seems like a land-grab is going on. Serpenteye, will
this all balance out in the end ( I think population-wise, I
only have 2 points) or should I start claiming incongruous
areas?

DEVILISH

E-Mail (with permission) devilishd@yahoo.com
PC: Acererak the Demilich

Powers:

- Acererak and his Tomb of Horrors - these represent an extraordinarily powerful suel demilich, small but extremely potent forces of servitor beings of all types, small but extremely potent forces of constructs, possible sizeable forces of servitor beings, and possible allies of various, strange, and unguessable (but extremely potent) nature
- Valley of the Mage - this represents a powerful wizard, sizeable forces of non-evil drow, small but potent forces of constructs, and possibly other forces
- Blackmoor - this represents sizeable forces of humans, sizeable forces of neutral and evil animals, sizeable forces of abominations, and possibly other forces
- The Cold Marshes - these represent large forces of abominations, sizeable forces of humanoids, large forces of neutral and evil animals, sizeable forces of undead, and possibly other forces

Color on map: LIGHT VIOLET
Territories on map: Tomb of Horrors in the Great Swamp, Valley of the Mage, Blackmoor, the Cold Marshes, possible other territories

That is rather little, even though you will have a lot of Elite and Epic PLs and the benefit of much of your faction being Undead.

It doesn't quite add up, though... And in the greater scheme of things you're not particularly powerful.
Maybe you'd like to add (a somewhat toned down version of) the Solistarim to your faction? That would pretty much double your power and place you among the top five. It would fit nicely thematically.
You can claim the Great Swamp as well.

If you claim the Solistarim you should give up the Valley of the Mage to Xael. (since it really fits him better and he'd need a boost.)

 

[devilish]

Sounds like a plan! The Vast Swamp a definite --- the Solistarim
if it can be fitted in equitably....in exchange for the Valley of the Mage

(....sorry Jaran Krimeeah, but Acererack's use for you is no more!)

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Iuz speaks again !

Seems like a land-grab is going on. Serpenteye, will
this all balance out in the end ( I think population-wise, I
only have 2 points) or should I start claiming incongruous
areas?

Acererak ... Acererak ... Thou has forgot that I promised slaves for You ! Don't worry about Your population ... Your zombies will grow in number.

And since I know that giving You souls is risky, I'm not going to give You any one.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Serpenteye: Dear GM, my comp is broken ... and I have strictly limited acces to Internet. Barely to keep up with news, I'm afraid. :\

Hope to repair it in time for start.

Can I claim Ivid and his city ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Iuz smiles approvingly to Eclavdra, but stops her from kissing his feet. His grip stronger than his whitered form might suggest.*

Mathron Eclavdra ... We was just asking about other Iuz, from the alternate world called IR 3. We know that thou has eyes everywhere. Just like We.

(OOC: Sorry for unwanted misdirection. )

And as for Ivid the Undying, he's troublesome underling ... and untrustworthy ally ... unlike You, Velsharess.

*Iuz smiled to Drow mathron again, as if watching particualry bloody agony.*

(OOC: Velsharess is a title from "Neverwinter Nights" along the line with Empress. For all curious and shying of asking. )

And as for elves ... they are simply mislead by their weak god, who betrayed even his wife. All the thime whining about honour and all ... His best achievment was cutting eye of an orc, and leaving him alive. Bah, that should describe his weakness enough.

Here, a small gift for You ... violated horn.

*Terrified goblin slave runs up and presents his God with red pillow, on wich lies ... single spiral horn, still bloddied from impaling in someone living, with marks of white fur around the brutally hewn out base. Iuz's happy smile widened. And when Eclavdra departed both goblin and Iuz glued their gazes to her ... following every graceful movement of the drow. When iron door closed behind her they both sighed, almost simulatinously. Iuz narrowed his eyebrows and gazed at the goblin ... creature seemed to diminsh in he's size almost like in magic. Iuz raised arm, goblin froze in utter terror ...*

Ach well ... Halga ! Althea ! Prepare a bath for us, NOW !!!

*Iuz stepped off his throne, withered wicked old man ... and walked slowly towards his private apartments. Relived goblin pissed himself ... And almost died of heart attack seeing that Iuz's glowing red eye is glaring at him from the darkness. When humanoid saw playful smile upon thin, cruel lips of the cambion he knew that Old One was just playing with him. Life is so unfair ...*

Shouldn't piss on my floor, slave.

*Trough the hallways of the Iuz's citadel echoed terrible scream of utter terror and pain. Louder than usual, anyway.*

(OOC: I would gladly claim Ivid ... and all his Demons. And Vecna must die. That's imperative for surviwal of our species. I guess that mighty Ashardalon wouldn't protest too much if some nosy Paladins, who are bad for liver You know ... and are damaging teeth with all this iron junk ... Iuz know it from personal experience since Paladins disagree with him all the way.
And Iuz like spies from other people ... in tomato sauce ! Unless particualr spy is talkative and preety ... and smart. )

 

[Xael]

Well, it seems that it would certainly make sense to have Mordenkainen be my PC, since he's the badass in The Circle of Eight. I just know next to nothing about him and his personality, so I hope nobody minds if my playing differs from the "real" Mordenkainen. I found stats (level 27 wizard) and a small description for him from Epic Level Handbook. That'll have to do.

I have really no idea what colors are free to be used for the map anymore, so I'll worry about that later.

My (potential) armies seem to mostly consist of Humans and Elves, plus at least 9 to 11 Epic Wizards (depends).

Are there any unclaimed areas in the immediate vicinity of my presently claimed areas? I've been lost long ago with all these claimings.

 

[Bugbear]

Edena and Guilt Puppy make my color Green

Just took a peak at the player's map and realized why no one had picked the color green, it's the background color so I'll let Guilt Puppy choose an appropriate color for me. After all he's the one who is making the map.

 

[James Heard]

Dark Green wouldn't be entirely invisible there I think.