(IR) 4th ooc-thread of the 5th IR

[Guilt Puppy]

Serpenteye: PLs look fine. (Note to all: The 5 Epic PL should not be taken as an indication that there are, in fact, five members of the Elder Circle. Nor should this statement be taken is an indication that there are more or less than five members of the Elder Circle.)

Also, I got your email (twice, in fact)... Re: the map, I'm thinking it may just be easier for me to maintain it by hand, and I am willing to do that. At this point updating it by hand over the course of several months probably constitutes less work than the task of automating a map so large.

Edena/Eclavdra:

Your proposals regarding Infiltration seem to muddy the issue unduly. We need, at most, a clause specifying that Infiltration is to be considered a military act; given that, the rest of your proposals fall naturally from the existing terms.

Further, we would like to clarify that, in our opinion, equivalent response should not imply identical response. For an act of infiltration matching the threat of 10,000 men, a conventional army of 10,000 men should suffice as response. This should not be taken loosely, however, and any power not offering clearly identical response should take the time to explain completely their reason in determining their response's equivalence.

To allow this flexibility is vital on two accounts:
- Firstly, because our powers possess many unique strengths and weaknesses. It does no good to force a power to respond to attack in its weakest or least proficient manner. Furthermore, in some cases and identical response may not be available to a power at all.
- Second, identical response provides our enemies with too much knowledge. A power that believes it can guard itself from, for instance, an anticipated mass infiltration, may choose to infiltrate one of our members with lessened fear of retribution.

It may be necessary to define some terms for equivalence -- what act of infiltration is equal to a conventional attack of 10,000 men, and so forth. The Brotherhood suggests that these terms be developed over time, by law of precedent.

 

[James Heard]

TO SERPENTEYE, IMPORTANT

I just realized: advancing in the Technological Arms Race does not actually increase my powers' IC at all.
It increases my powers' POTENTIAL IC, but it does not increase my powers' ACTUAL IC.

That's correct as far as I know, but if you increased your TL to 8 you'd automatically be increasing your PL's attack/defense by 2 (except for your militia units, which only gain a +1 modifier from technology ever).

So each turn you've basically got a choice of industrializing, increasing your cap/slightly improving your PL's power, or building armies.

Then, after you've decided that, you figure on how many units you can afford to sacrifice for counter-espionage and espionage (though I prefer to think that many units spent this way are just "used up" their active duty rotations, because otherwise good and neutral powers really shouldn't engage in espionage at all- that is, PLs spent on espionage should rarely not return to the population), how many Epic PLs you're going to use for spell research, and how many regular and militia units you intend to demobilize (you cannot demobilize elite and epic PL - once they're Elite or higher they're in effect "stuck")- and immediately how you must spend any PP gained by demobilizing Regular PLs.

And then, finally, if you want to engage in warfare you do that.

I think. It's easier if you think of the turn having phases like that, and remember that everyone else is taking (I think) phases that take effect at the same time at the end of the turn.

When is the game actually starting?

 

[Serpenteye]

- I assume you have a phantom IC, limited by the cap from your Tech.

Correct.

First off, what's with the apostrophes instead of commas? Second, the paragraph uses the number "divided by 200,000". Then the example at the end uses "/100,000". Which is right?

100,000. I'll edit.

I've got VERY good news.
Thomas never left us. He was on holiday.
So Thomas is still with us. Cheers.

Welcome back Thomas!

I need help understanding the combat rules. You use one dice roll to resolve combat for each player. That I get. What I'm having trouble understanding is how you handle multiple different types of power levels.

Lets say we have a faction with: 100 epic, 100 elite, 100 regular, and 100 militia PL. This faction attacks another faction with the same numbers. How is combat resolved? Is it still just one diceroll? What bonus is used? How much PL of each type is lost (I'm assuming 10 of each would be the result for the loser?)

The second question (and this one really is just for clarity for myself), when 1 epic PL attacks 100 regular PL and wins, it does it do 0.001 PL damage, or 10 PL damage? My guess is currently on the 0.001.

1) Each kind of army gets a separate roll, and the defending army rolls against each of them in turn. The damage is calculated separately but added together.

2) 0.001 is correct, (0,10x0.01). That's far too little, considering the modifiers. A Regular force with a slight advantage in technology would almost certainly wipe out the Epic force before the Epic force could do more than scratch the Regular. This calls for a revision...

New rule: If the modified roll to attack exceeds the other sides modified roll to defend with 3 points the damage inflicted is doubled, if the roll is exceeded with 5 points the damage is quadrupled, 7 points octupled, etc.

This, added to the Epic's mobility and ability to strike basically anywhere should balance the lowish damage it will still inflict on an army of equal value but lesser kind of PL.

Does this seem ok to all you number-crunchers out there?

(an Epic's base modifiers are +7 defense, +8 attack.)

Request/Addendum to the Empire of Lynn:

I would like to further customize the peoples of Lynn by adding on the feature that the type of magic they practice in an interesting combination of divine magic and arcane (necromantic) magic. The undead dynasty of Lynn practice a form of spirit/ancestor worship (of those lost in battle and those who died before their pact was made), not revering a particularly deity but instead being akin to shamanism. Over the centuries they have also learned how to channel energy using their undead heritage to form a greater understanding of necromancy. As an example of their unique magical tradition, Lynnian necromancers who animate skeletons have developed a technique where they exchange one of the bones of their body with that of the skeleton in order to give them limited-range telepathic control over the creature. Some Lynnian "cleric" types channel spirits of long dead ancestors into their warriors as well.

As a flavor note, whenever the Lynnians create regular army, elite army, or epic armies, they are simply waking more ancient generations of Lynnians who have removed themself from the surface world and entered a sort of trance state during periods of ennui or contemplation.

Another flavor note, I imagine that undead would have been the perfect type of worker for industry-after all they don't eat, don't sleep, don't tire. I'm going to say that the Lynnians from living in an undeath state so long are kinda like old timers when it comes to technology-willing to use them, but slower at learning and thus even though they work more than the living races do, they would go at the same pace.

For the above reason I would like to request that my faction gains the Divine magic using trait. I would also like to claim 2 artifacts, the Ring of Gaxx and Ring of Cirrus for my PC, and if its not already too much I'd like to claim Emperor Lynn III as an epic PL. These are all requests and you are of course to turn them down.

The special kind of divine magic seems excessive... I could rule that the ancestor-spirits are in a state of terrified confusion after the sealing and huddle in terror in the depths of the Oerth until you can coax them out and rebuild their power with your worship. You would still have a unique flavour, but not a unique advantage.

PL:

Regular PL: 400
Elite PL: 35
Epic PL: 3 (not including PC)
Glu’boise: 2 epPL

TOTAL VALUE OF PL: 1250 rPL

The Emperor is already represented by 1 of the 3 Epic PLs that is not your character.

You can have either the ring of Gax or the ring of Cirrus, but not both.

Hey Serpenteye, since i havent claiemd anything, I would like to possibly claim these:

Dragons' Island: 700,000 = 35 IC
Island of Fireland: 1,600,000 = 66 IC

Claims granted . Anything else? There's still a lot unclaimed in space, and in the parts of the Astral and Ethereal sealed off together with Oerth.

If its okay I'll claim that undersea empire officially then. Brings me up to par I think.

Granted.

Serpenteye:

Is it possible to advance ithe magic arms races, without causing lasting environmental harm (or using diabolic blue prints) ?

Certainly. The devils have nothing to do with the Magic arms race and your magic has no more effect on the environment than you want it to have.

And now I'm signing up having finally caught up. Hopefully I'll get online again tomorrow so I don't fall so far behind its taken me over 3 hours to get back up to par.

I'd also like to formally claim (they were included in my faction write up but I didn't formally claim them) Morwel's consorts, Faerinaal (CR 29) and Gwynharwyf (CR 26) as significant NPCs.

Serpenteye I assume the rulings on PL are final and I can handle that but between Morwel's two consorts, I don't believe that any of my titan forces can be active with only the 2 Epic PL (or have a miscalculated the value of Epic PL somewhere ?). Or are the titans counted in amongst the lesser PL somewhere ? (Sorry for the hassle I'd just like an idea of what PL represents what forces for when I decide where to direct stuff with regards to my template)

Serpenteye (PRIVATE)
[sblock]
I'll rewrite the Eladrin background for refugee mode tomorrow hopeful. Goodnight all please don't destroy Oerth before I get back.
[/sblock]

Titans... I think most of them would have to count as Elite PLs. Think of them as Titans-Light, diet Titans. Since Epic PLs usually represent single individuals (or no less than 0,5 of a PL per individual) having all your titans be Epic would give you hundreds of Epic PLs, which is of course impossible. You already have 1500 equivalent rPL, which is a lot more than average. With the addition of the submarine realm your IC will no longer be that much less than average.

(CRUCIAL) (CRUCIAL) (CRUCIAL)

- Thus, advancing in the Technological Arms Race increases my POTENTIAL IC, but does nothing for my ACTUAL IC.
- Industrializing does nothing for my POTENTIAL IC, but it increases my ACTUAL IC.

(CRUCIAL) (CRUCIAL) (CRUCIAL)

Correct.

Hi all,

I haven't posted since I have very bad problem with my computer. Hardware problem so I have to wait till I have money to order some new parts. Now windows crashes all the time.

I try to get in game, when my computer works so much time I can both read and aswer to posts and so on.

Have a nice gaming meanwhile folks.

I'm sorry to hear that. At least Airwhale can manage the faction by himself until you get a more reliable computer.

Also, I got your email (twice, in fact)... Re: the map, I'm thinking it may just be easier for me to maintain it by hand, and I am willing to do that. At this point updating it by hand over the course of several months probably constitutes less work than the task of automating a map so large.

That's probably true. (Thanks, etc )

That's correct as far as I know, but if you increased your TL to 8 you'd automatically be increasing your PL's attack/defense by 2 (except for your militia units, which only gain a +1 modifier from technology ever).

So each turn you've basically got a choice of industrializing, increasing your cap/slightly improving your PL's power, or building armies.

Then, after you've decided that, you figure on how many units you can afford to sacrifice for counter-espionage and espionage (though I prefer to think that many units spent this way are just "used up" their active duty rotations, because otherwise good and neutral powers really shouldn't engage in espionage at all- that is, PLs spent on espionage should rarely not return to the population), how many Epic PLs you're going to use for spell research, and how many regular and militia units you intend to demobilize (you cannot demobilize elite and epic PL - once they're Elite or higher they're in effect "stuck")- and immediately how you must spend any PP gained by demobilizing Regular PLs.

And then, finally, if you want to engage in warfare you do that.

I think. It's easier if you think of the turn having phases like that, and remember that everyone else is taking (I think) phases that take effect at the same time at the end of the turn.

When is the game actually starting?

Correct.

--

Monday or tuesday.


Remember:

I need you to send me an E-Mail where you tell me how you allocate your production and where you place your armies. Research, industrialization, armybuilding or -upgrading, infiltration, espionage and how many pls you put in reserve for counter-infiltration.

 

[Creamsteak]

Diet Titans

You've made my day.

2) 0.001 is correct, (0,10x0.01). That's far too little, considering the modifiers. A Regular force with a slight advantage in technology would almost certainly wipe out the Epic force before the Epic force could do more than scratch the Regular. This calls for a revision...

New rule: If the modified roll to attack exceeds the other sides modified roll to defend with 3 points the damage inflicted is doubled, if the roll is exceeded with 5 points the damage is quadrupled, 7 points octupled, etc.

This, added to the Epic's mobility and ability to strike basically anywhere should balance the lowish damage it will still inflict on an army of equal value but lesser kind of PL.

Does this seem ok to all you number-crunchers out there?

(an Epic's base modifiers are +7 defense, +8 attack.)

I'm not as educated in statistics as I really should be, but I can run it through a computer program real quick. Give me some time.

 

[Anabstercorian]

I'm a merchant and I'm okay...

We have a surprise announcement to make.

The Triumvirate Rebellious would like to join the Treaty of Erinhei-Cinlu and the Treaty of Ekbir.

Hopefully, these two powers will hold each other in check and allow a peace to reign over the land. By being in both, I hope to establish a favorable trading position mimicing that of my geographic position.

 

[Creamsteak]

Well, with normal numbers, it doesn't appear that regular PL can even harm epic PL first off. They just can't roll that high. Your solution at least helps the problem of epic PL being, basically, useless for inflicting damage on an equivelent amount of lower PL, however, the regular PL (despite the massive damage it would inflict) can't "hit" epic PL.

Here is the ratio of the different damage multipliers that an epic PL would inflict on regular PL using that method. While those damage multipliers don't look bad, the battle between epic PL and regular PL leaves no chance for victory. The problem, perhaps, is the lack of a "critical hit" that a lower bonus unit should occationally inflict on a higher power. I'm not suggesting anything though, just presenting the information.

3/32 x2
7/32 x4
11/32 x8
9/32 x16
5/32 x32
1/32 x64

One thought I just now had was to apply the same rules in reverse. A 1 to 2 is 1x damage, a -1 to 0 is 1/2 damage, a -3 to -2 is 1/4 damage. This would make it such that a large force of regular PL (100 regular vs. 1 epic PL) would deal damage on each round, just not as much. Still, on a good roll (roll a 6 vs. epic rolling a 1 on the regular PL's attack round) it would deal -2 or 1/4 damage (2.5 PL damage, which is the equivelent of 250 regular PL. However, that's a 1/32 chance).

Actually that sounds good to me. Maybe that works. Let me present the probabilities:

3/32 = x1/4
7/32 = x1/8
11/32 = x1/16
9/32 = x1/32
5/32 x1/64
1/32 = x1/128

 

[Creamsteak]

OK, here's the crunch (using my numeric system above, where we also apply damage during a negative roll, just significantly less so).

On average, an Epic PL 1 vs. Regular PL 100
Each round, the Epic PL 1 will deal on average 1.53125 PL Damage
Each round, the Regular PL 100 will deal on average 0.8374023 PL Damage

Typically, 1 Epic PL inflicts 1.828571429 damage on 100 PL before it dies. Hrm...

10/32 times, at least 1 epic PL is destroyed.
If you reduce the damage one step (either by extending the x1 damage area one step below as well, or any equivelent variation) you change it to 3/32. At 3/32, the average damage an epic PL can expect to get is better (roughly x3), and it's more of a gamble ("I only have a 3/32 chance of losing my epic PL, so I can keep on trying and trying and hope to get lucky"). That sounds interesting and a bit more sensible (I have a good chance at hitting them once and then running, but little to no chance of defeating them in a prolonged assault).

In the end, I'm not sure and I'll wait for more opinions.

 

[Xael]

I have a question: Do we start with tech level of 0 or 1? By the IC numbers, I suppose 0. The text in the rules post indicates about 1500's technology though, which is also the description of tech level 1.

Also, I've spotted some values that I think are miscalculations in the IC levels (I'm not sure). For example, my demiplane that has 2,000,000 inhabitants is worth 100 IC, but Venus' Lower Khanate with the same amount of population if only worth 80 IC before the control modifier. I also think that my Vesve Forests' IC has a calculation error: total population of 2,687,000 * 5 / 100,000 * 0.75 = 100,7625 IC instead of the 82,5. I'm not sure.

I'm not 100% sure that I understand the rules, so I'd appreciate if Serpenteye could, for example, post first-turn PL/PP/whatever spendings of an imaginary nation, and the effects of these. If that isn't too much of a trouble.

 

[James Heard]

No miscalculations - some places are already more industrialized than others. The calculation is only pertinent to finding out a province's MAXIMUM IC. That is, you're figuring out the upper edge of what's possible given your technology and how many people you have available to man the factories and sweat shops. Then some factions have infiltration already going on, which further diminishes the IC available to be converted to PP from the ideal.

 

[Serpenteye]

Well, with normal numbers, it doesn't appear that regular PL can even harm epic PL first off. They just can't roll that high. Your solution at least helps the problem of epic PL being, basically, useless for inflicting damage on an equivelent amount of lower PL, however, the regular PL (despite the massive damage it would inflict) can't "hit" epic PL.

Here is the ratio of the different damage multipliers that an epic PL would inflict on regular PL using that method. While those damage multipliers don't look bad, the battle between epic PL and regular PL leaves no chance for victory. The problem, perhaps, is the lack of a "critical hit" that a lower bonus unit should occationally inflict on a higher power. I'm not suggesting anything though, just presenting the information.

3/32 x2
7/32 x4
11/32 x8
9/32 x16
5/32 x32
1/32 x64

One thought I just now had was to apply the same rules in reverse. A 1 to 2 is 1x damage, a -1 to 0 is 1/2 damage, a -3 to -2 is 1/4 damage. This would make it such that a large force of regular PL (100 regular vs. 1 epic PL) would deal damage on each round, just not as much. Still, on a good roll (roll a 6 vs. epic rolling a 1 on the regular PL's attack round) it would deal -2 or 1/4 damage (2.5 PL damage, which is the equivelent of 250 regular PL. However, that's a 1/32 chance).

Actually that sounds good to me. Maybe that works. Let me present the probabilities:

3/32 = x1/4
7/32 = x1/8
11/32 = x1/16
9/32 = x1/32
5/32 x1/64
1/32 = x1/128

OK, here's the crunch (using my numeric system above, where we also apply damage during a negative roll, just significantly less so).

On average, an Epic PL 1 vs. Regular PL 100
Each round, the Epic PL 1 will deal on average 1.53125 PL Damage
Each round, the Regular PL 100 will deal on average 0.8374023 PL Damage

Typically, 1 Epic PL inflicts 1.828571429 damage on 100 PL before it dies. Hrm...

Hrm, indeed.

That unmodified Regulars are unable to harm unmodified Epics isn't really a problem. All factions have Epics and Elites that can harm other Epics and Regulars still serve a purpose for fighting Elites, Regulars and Militia and occupying territory. Factions that invest in technology will get most value out of their investment if they use regulars and Regulars will be able to harm Epics by using superior technology.

The damage-during-a-negative-roll-system doesn't work without further changes to the rules, since it renders Epics too vulnerable, but it doesn't seem necessary all things considered.

I have a question: Do we start with tech level of 0 or 1? By the IC numbers, I suppose 0. The text in the rules post indicates about 1500's technology though, which is also the description of tech level 1.

Also, I've spotted some values that I think are miscalculations in the IC levels (I'm not sure). For example, my demiplane that has 2,000,000 inhabitants is worth 100 IC, but Venus' Lower Khanate with the same amount of population if only worth 80 IC before the control modifier. I also think that my Vesve Forests' IC has a calculation error: total population of 2,687,000 * 5 / 100,000 * 0.75 = 100,7625 IC instead of the 82,5. I'm not sure.

I'm not 100% sure that I understand the rules, so I'd apprecieta if Serpenteye could, for example, post first-turn PL/PP/whatever spendings of an imaginary nation, and the effects of these. If that isn't too much of a trouble.

You all begin with a tech-value of 1, equivalent to 1500. I have calculated your maximum IC, but subtracted a varying fraction from that amount when I determined the actual IC of the territory. You're not all operating at the same efficiency, but you can increase your IC by investing in industrialization.
It's not a bug, it's a feature.