Iron Dragon Charge

[HighTemplar]

This thread concerns the Iron Dragon Charge daily power, Warlord lvl 9

Just need to be convinces about this...
Here are a coupple of cases from most abusive scenarios to ridiculously weak ones depending on interpretation:

1)You charge, using IDC, and so can all your friends 5sq from you.

2)You charge, using IDC, and a friend charges and also uses IDC, to trigger your third friend who also uses IDC and so on(assuming theyre all fresh lv 9 warlord of course). This is due to the fact that IDC is a special charge action but is this legal ? well come back to it.

3)You charge and only one of your friends gets the chance to charge your target as well this turn. When you charge another foe next turn, another of your friends that are within 5sq can charge with you as well, and so does the first one.

4) like 3) but the first one that charged with you cannot charge as you chose someone else as the target of "an ally of your choice"- he uses his immediate reaction, you decide hes your choice (?)

5) like 3), but the only friend who can charge with you for the whole encounter is your first friend

6) like 5), but he also needs to be within 5sq of you everytime you charge to followup

7)worse of the worse, You charge using IDC, but as the EFFECT line takes effect after your HIT, you have already charged the target, your action now being over, it is too late for your friends to use any immediate reaction to followup your charge. They are inspired by your action but will only be able to charge in with you on your next charge leading to points 7.1 to 7.6 using previous cases.

Comments ?

(this power can be pretty unclear, answer is most likely 3 to 6 to prevent abuse and not make the power worthless)

NOTE: using IDC is stated as a standard action (does it require erratum?) looking into the SPECIAL line, im assuming it is a power you can only use on your turn, getting rid of 2), but, checking Garrote Grip(rogue 15) and Precision Cut( Paragon fighter- swordmaster 11), have on action type, standard(special). This is because they both can be done by an action that isint a standard one (minor or free, in this case). Charging on the other hand is always a standard action, if you forget this power which can grant a free charging action, could it be possible that you could use this as part of any charge action (whether you used a standard during your turn, or not or if the charge attack is granted freely).

*It is possible to have someone charge during your turn using helm of heroes and many warlord powers so its more about whether you used a standard action to
charge or not.

Discuss!

 

[Saben]

I rule it as:

One friend may charge on the turn you use Iron Dragon Charge.

Every turn after that, when you charge pick a friend (the same or a new one) that is within 5 squares of you (on that turn). They can charge.

I think that was 4).

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Daily Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Special: You must charge as part of this attack.
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Effect: Until the end of the encounter, as an immediate reaction, an ally of your choice within 5 squares of you can charge a target that you charge.

Seems very straightforward to me.

You use a standard action to charge an enemy, following all the rules for charging as normal. As an immediate reactoin, an ally of your choice within 5 squares also makes a charge (note that when charging you can only normally make a basic attack, so that stops any multiple Iron Dragon Charge silliness).

The ally can choose whether or not to take the action, and who to charge, within the limits of the description (eg it must be someone that you could have charged).

You seem to be making this a lot more complicated than it actually is, and to be honest I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with most of your points. The power clearly states that "an ally of your choice within 5 squares of you can charge a target that you charge", meaning one person, not multiple.

 

[Mengu]

It's not very straight forward. My interpretation of RAW:

Since the effect happens after the charge, allies gain no benefit from IDC on the turn you use it. [The resolution of the effect is after the condition of the immediate reaction, so you can't go back in time to benefit from it.] Thereafter, any turn you charge a target, you pick an ally within 5, and that ally can charge the same target as an immediate reaction.

I could see an interpretation where an ally might be allowed to charge on the turn you use IDC. I suspect that might be the RAI. But it needs some clarification or additional text to be interpreted that way.

A similar problem exists with Pin the Foe. Its effect is that the opponent can't shift. But if you miss a goblin with Pin the Foe, the goblin can shift, before you get to apply the effect, since the goblin's immediate interrupt happens on the miss, and the effect takes place afterwords.

 

[inati]

In regards to the multiple charging issue: If two warlords used IDC already in the encounter, and charged a foe, the first warlord charges, picks the second warlord, who also charges, who then picks another party member to charge. I could see that happening, if going by RAW.

 

[Runestar]

It is possible that he may be confusing it with the warmaster's charge maneuver from tome of battle, which is indeed riddled with tons of rules questions.

Still, some similar problems still arise.

The power clearly states that "an ally of your choice within 5 squares of you can charge a target that you charge", meaning one person, not multiple.

I can actually see 2 different ways of reading it.

as an immediate reaction, an ally of your choice within 5 squares of you can charge a target that you charge.

Does this mean that you can, as an immediate action, grant an ally within 5 squares the ability to instantly charge said foe (meaning that I can designate a different ally each round, depending on who is in the best position to charge), which also means that it cannot be performed during my turn?

Or that said ally can charge using his own immediate action (meaning that the decision once made, cannot be changed)? Which means that he can indeed charge during my turn.

Also, how many times can said ability be used? As often as I have immediate actions? 1/encounter? As often as the ally wants?

 

[WalterKovacs]

Each character has 1 immediate reaction per round [one go around the initiative track, basically you get a "new" one on each of your turns].

Your ally uses his immediate reaction. It can't be you because you can't use an immediate reaction on your turn.

So for the rest of the encounter, as long as you [and an ally] have the ability to charge people, and they have no other use for their immediate reactions, you can keep using the power. Now, it's not necessarily easy to pull this off every round, but it is hypothetically possible.

 

[HighTemplar]

[...]
You seem to be making this a lot more complicated than it actually is, and to be honest I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with most of your points. The power clearly states that "an ally of your choice within 5 squares of you can charge a target that you charge", meaning one person, not multiple.

The whole point of this thread is that the power is not entirely clear as there can be many legitimate interpretations.

The whole problem as to whether this power can affect multiple people in the same round is because the trigger action is not you charging, but actually an ally spending an immediate reaction.
Henceforth,
"Until the end of the encounter" - anytime
"As an imediate reaction" - one of your friend can spend an immediate reacion (only 1 between each turn)
"an ally of your choice within 5 squares of you" - Youre about to say it's AN, but we're only taking about one person at a time... this is the unclear part. If it said "choose one ally within 5 sq of you. This ally can charge any targets you have just charged at the cost of an immediate reaction for the rest of the encounter." it would be clearer. In this way of reading it, many people can actually be chosen by you as you dont have to choose until they spend an imediate reaction, and then its actually implied as tho whom you've chosen (immediate ation spender) which i does not make 100% sense, it is nonetheless a somehow valid interpretation.(not?)

"can charge a target that you charge." noone argues on this part

 

[Hypersmurf]

Since the effect happens after the charge, allies gain no benefit from IDC on the turn you use it. [The resolution of the effect is after the condition of the immediate reaction, so you can't go back in time to benefit from it.]

What makes you say the effect happens after the charge?

The charge is part of the attack, the effect occurs simultaneously with the attack, so when the effect occurs, the charge is in the process of being resolved and is able-to-be-reacted-to.

A similar problem exists with Pin the Foe. Its effect is that the opponent can't shift. But if you miss a goblin with Pin the Foe, the goblin can shift, before you get to apply the effect, since the goblin's immediate interrupt happens on the miss, and the effect takes place afterwords.

Consider Spiritual Weapon.

Hit: Deal damage.
Effect: A spiritual weapon appears and smacks the target.

Does the target take damage before the weapon appears?

Now, I think the goblin does escape in your example, because even though the Effect ("You can't shift!") occurs at the same time as the Miss, the interrupt happens before the Miss resolves. But if the goblin's shift was a reaction to the Miss, he couldn't do it... because the shift would occur after the Miss, and by the time the Miss is resolved, so is the Effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Syrsuro]

I think its pretty clear (i.e. the RAI is very clear so the problems with interpreting the RAW only occur if you are looking for ways to mis-interpret it).


Iron Dragon Charge

Warlord Attack 9​

Like a rampaging iron dragon, you hurl yourself at your adversary,
landing a terrific blow that inspires your allies to charge as

well.

Daily ​

✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee
weapon
Target:
One creature
Attack:
Strength vs. AC
Special:
You must charge as part of this attack.
Hit:
3[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Effect:
Until the end of the encounter, as an immediate
reaction, an ally of your choice within 5 squares of you can
charge a target that you charge.


Repeat: Until the end of the encounter as an immediate reaction, an ally of your choice within 5 squares of you can charge a target that you charge.

In other words: IF in any round before the end of the encounter (including but not limited to the round in which the power is first used) you charge a target, you can choose a single ally who can - as an immediate reaction - also charge that same ally. If, during any round, you do not charge a target you do not allow an ally to make a free charge either.​

And an ally means an ally. There is no way that this language can be construed to allow one instance of this power to allow more than one ally per turn to make a follow up charge (for multiple instances of IDC see below).​

Because each occurance is a separate immediate reaction (i.e. because each time you charge triggers a new immediate reaction), you get to pick a new charge-buddy to be your ally (subject to range restriction) but you both have to charge the same target.​

The only area of ambiguity I see is the range - is that within five squares of you when you initiate the charge or at the completion of the charge.​

This seems pretty clear and, aside from the detail mentioned above, I don't see the ambiguity.​

And the rare case where you have multiple warlords all using the same power is an odd corner case but yes, it would allow the players to chain charges. Player A (with IDC active) charges target X, allowing Player B (with IDC active) to also charge target X. Player B then allows player C to also charge target X, etc. But a) I don't see this as a likely occurance and b) Since each character can only use one immediate per turn this only allows a maximum of one extra charge per round per character regardless of how many of them have used IDC (and there is a practical limit on how many characters can charge the same target anyway).​

Carl​

 

[77IM]

4e needs closures...

Actually, let us rearrange this sentence to clarify subject-predicate agreement as required by our English teachers.

"An ally of your choice within 5 squares of you can charge as an immediate reaction a target that you charge until the end of the encounter."

(Still a grammatical mess, because it's not clear what the "until" clause is attached to.)

This implies that you must choose the ally up-front, and that the ally is the one spending the immediate reaction. Since effects happen right away when a power is used, and immediate reactions happen immediately after whatever they are reacting to, it seems to me that the ally could react to the Iron Dragon Charge itself, since it was the preceding event and was a charge.

I think this is interpretation 5) in the original post.

-- 77IM