[Iron Heroes] Magic oddities.

[Particle_Man]

So far, the only criticism I have seen on this thread is that Evokers are weak. I have an idea:

1) Ban the Evocation school entirely. It does not exist. Gone. Period.
2) Allow the Eldritch Darts and Master of Heat and Flame to vary their energy types starting at 5th level. Darts can be force, sonic, and electricity. Master of Heat and Flame can be fire, cold or acid. Allow the former to exist as a "ball" (20' radius, treat all dart "attacks" as happening at once and in the same area)) and the latter to exist as a "cone" (30', treat all cone "attacks" as happening at once and in the same area) starting at 10th level. Instead of rolling to hit with attacks, targets reflex save for half damage, with (DC = arcanist's level + int mod + any mana points the arcanist spends that round (decide to spend before casting)). (A roll of 1 on the casting roll has the "ball" center on you and the "cone" affect you and spit out in a random direction; No chance to save for half damage on "ball" or "cone" for arcanist that rolls a "1", although others roll to save as normal). At 20th level the "ball" is 40' and the "cone" is 60', if the arcanist chooses. Also at 20th level, the "ball" can be both sonic and lightning, and the "cone" can combine acid with either fire or cold).
3) Allow the Arcanist to "pump" more damage into the Eldritch Darts or Master of Heat and Flame by burning their own hit points, at a 1 to 1 ratio (nice for ball and cone effects). This must be done before the d20 role is made (so they might end up hurting themselves and paying hit points for the priviledge).

This was not playtested so much as pulled out of my you know what just now. It seems like a place to start, though. Now that I think on it, maybe Evocation was toned down to reduce chance of Arcanist autokilling himself on a 1 (their hp isn't that great). Maybe my method above would result in dead arcanists.

All the other schools except Evocation have the right power level + risk for this sort of campaign. I want magic to be risky in IH, after all. I mean, yeah you could try for a dragon, but it makes more sense to go for a creature that a) will be useful and b) that you can handle if it "Goes Frankenstein" on you. That or have a creature with a crappy movement rate compared to yours.

 

[Particle_Man]

I believe the first d20 game to attempt to replace them (in a reasonably balanced way, IMO) was FFG's Midnight.

Didn't the Psionics Handbook use points before Midnight came out?

 

[Plane Sailing]

All RPG magic does not have to be based on bloody spell slots! I believe the first d20 game to attempt to replace them (in a reasonably balanced way, IMO) was FFG's Midnight.

I've got no idea what order different books appeared in, but alternatives put out by WotC include:

Star Wars - the force. Feats, skills and vitality point expenditure.
Call of Cthulhu - learn individual spells, no spell levels, but casting spells will cost you sanity and do ability point damage. Lovely flavourful system!

 

[ThirdWizard]

It's more a case (IMO) of a subsystem that looks like a first draft of something that could have been great. Liimited to the bits that (IMO) need very little revision, the Arcanist is fine.

Potato, Potahto.

I'm not saying it needs to be overhauled, just that its half-finished. The problem being that the Arcanist wasn't the most important thing to complete before the deadline, and other things needed cleaning up as well. Suffice to say I'm happy to have IH now even if the arcanist class isn't up to the quality of the rest of the book, as the class is still playable. Personally, I would have been happy if evocation had been left out, so its weakness isn't really a concern to me.

Somehow, though, it just doesn't seem to "fit" to me.

 

[Driddle]

So far, the only criticism I have seen on this thread is that Evokers are weak. ...

So they're weak. (shrug) There's no need to make 'em stronger.

((Hmmm... Looks like I've got a new hobby...))

 

[Malachias Invictus]

Directly to the point: Why is it so frippin' important that players have access to magic in the game?

This is a fantasy game. My players want access to magic in the game. As a GM, I want to give them access to magic in the game. I enjoy magic in that game, as a player and as a GM.

What makes it impossible to play IH -- or any other variant rules -- without 'tweaking' the magic system?

The Iron Heroes magic system is unplayable as written. It is *possible* to play completely without it. It is, at the same time, *undesirable* to do so.

Overheard at the ice cream parlor...
Child: "I want double-chocolate fudge."
Mother: "They don't have double-chocolate fudge here, dear."
Child: "But I want double-chocolate fudge!!!"
Mother: "Honey, why don't you try chocolate-caramel ripple for a change? Or rocky road? Or any one of the other 48 flavors they're offering? ... They look delightful."
Child: "I. WANT. DOUBLE. CHOCOLATE. FUDGE!"
Mother: "Sweetie, let's go home now so I can kick your father in his testicles."

No, your take on it seems more like this:

Child: "Since I have been very good today, may I have some ice cream, please?"
Mother: "We don't have any."
Child: "I have some money saved up. I could buy some, if that is okay."
Mother: "I don't feel like driving to the store."
Child: "I would be happy to ride my bike, ma'am."
Mother: "Shut the Hell up and get me a beer, before I knock your teeth out!"

 

[JohnSnow]

I'm not saying it needs to be overhauled, just that its half-finished. The problem being that the Arcanist wasn't the most important thing to complete before the deadline, and other things needed cleaning up as well. Suffice to say I'm happy to have IH now even if the arcanist class isn't up to the quality of the rest of the book, as the class is still playable. Personally, I would have been happy if evocation had been left out, so its weakness isn't really a concern to me.

Somehow, though, it just doesn't seem to "fit" to me.

Exactly. I think the spell system in Iron Heroes is VERY intriguing. I just don't think it quite hits all the things I want magic to do in my games. In other words, I like it, I just think it's so close to being a homerun that I want to see if I can tweak it into being one. Right now, it's more like a groundrule double. :\

The fact that casters can only throw a couple spells a day without being in serious trouble is an annoyance. Iron Heroes in general is so well-written to avoid the "per day" mess that I'd hate to allow a caster in my group, because they'd want to rest up and regain spells after every encounter. I'd rather they had more level-appropriate powers usable "at will." The aspects of power are nice, but they're not enough.

All of my proposals have been for ways to accomplish certain other kinds of spells. I'm quite happy that teleport and detect magic are gone (along with all the alignment spells), and I guess I won't miss "Fly" either. However, entangle is gone too along with all of its nature-loving kin, like the "weather affecting" spells, and that's sorta sad. Now maybe what I'm really saying is that the book just needs more "spell methods." But I also think that the "academic" classification of D&D schools is a little jarring in an otherwise much more primitive feeling world. So my ideal system would junk Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation for divisions that fit the "feel" better.

I actually think arcanists are pretty well-balanced if you let the Mana Limit be "per encounter" (So it regnerates in about an hour), rather than "per day." An arcanist's power is already pretty well reigned-in by both Spell Mastery levels and casting checks.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I actually think arcanists are pretty well-balanced if you let the Mana Limit be "per encounter" (So it regnerates in about an hour), rather than "per day." An arcanist's power is already pretty well reigned-in by both Spell Mastery levels and casting checks.

If I were to rework the arcanist, this is the first thing I would do, though I might lower the mana per level by a small amount. It's already dangerous to cast spells, so I don't see any real point in limiting how much they can cast per day. To fix any problems with out of combat casting, I'd probably give a regeneration rate for mana, though... say 1/4 their level in mana per minute resting their mind, minimum of 1 (just off the top of my head, but some number based on level, maybe 1/2, or just their level per minute).

 

[MacMathan]

So I am wondering if it was a matter of not enough time to implement changes suggested by play testers or if the play testers did not encounter the imbalances and potential problems in the casting schools with higher level arcanists.

If it was the former maybe some of the play testers could chime in with their experiences with the higher level arcanists.

Yes I know I said I did not have time to tinker with this but it has apparently captured a large portion of my mind-share

I am tempted to take a somewhat minimalist approach and mainly mess with the DCs for spells while trying to maintain the lower powered feel of IH as I see it. Basically I do not think any arcanist school should be better than a standard 3.5 caster at any level. In fact it seems like a lot of the schools that seem well done to me are about 1/2 power by comparison.

The schools that cause problems for me are the ones that provide save or die effects, like transmutation or seem to give too much bang for the buck like conjuration. I need to analyze the other schools further.

In the meantime do we know if the Iron League or someone else is going to host this sort of wiki etc soon?

 

[Particle_Man]

One fix: Have two separate mana limits.

Mana Limit A: Can only be refreshed once per day. Cannot be accessed in stressful situations (once initiative is rolled, mana A is inaccessible and mana B comes into play).

Mana Limit B: Can only be used during an encounter - all mana is "lost" at end of the encounter - is refreshed at beginning of the next encounter.

I have no way to make this make sense in game terms, but maybe it would at least provide a balance between the "runs out of points after X combats" and "does magic all the ding dong day" extremes.