Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[Particle_Man]

So now that Mike Mearls is working for Wotc, who takes over Iron Heroes? And what part of it is the last part that Mike worked on before he left? An adventure? Just the "alt core" books? (phb, dmg, mm)

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

From what I understand of the timing and the nature of things I think he got through at least the core books, but I'd also be careful about making the leap that just because he isn't working for Malhavoc he isn't working on IH.

There are several places in the last chat transcript where he mentions scheduling issues, and I'm certain those come up less frequently when he was working for Malhavoc.

But he was still there for the chat, it's still his book, and I imagine he still sees some back end from it.

 

[Monte At Home]

Mike finished his work on Iron Heroes (it's already at the printer!), Mastering Iron Heroes and Monsters of Iron Heroes (those last two are in development/editing). I know it seems weird, but we work way ahead of schedule. Mike worked with us for a full year, which was the term of his contract. We're happy to have worked with him, and now we're happy for him to be working for Wizards. (Just to be clear, our "parting" was entirely friendly, and in fact was going to happen Wizards job or not. I was a reference for him for the new job--we think it's great for him, and better for Wizards.)

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

hurray for printer news!

and here's hoping the printer is good to you and to us all.

One of the games I am most loving in preview has been hurt by printer troubles on three seperate occasions now.

 

[Felon]

I was really hoping Mearls was serious when he said that you could "plug and play" IH classes with D&D adventures. I didn't know how he was going to do it, but I had faith. Apparently, his version of "plug and play" looks a little too much like "DIY modding" for my comfort. If there was anything I didn't like about Grim Tales (and there wasn't much), it was the whole figurin' out CR and EL thingy. It wasn't that it didn't work (it worked like clockwork), it just that I don't have enough free time/ inclination to do that sort of thing. I want the rules to "just work", and work simply, without a lot of tinkering or calculations. I'm lazy like that.

If you're playing a game that's a radical departure from D&D, which IH is, it's pretty impractical to expect a D&D adventure to play without a hitch straight out of the box. D&D has expectations that character will have certain resources, such as access to divination spellls, abjuration spells, transportation magic, and of course magic weapons and curative magic, that IH characters won't have in equal portions. That's the point of IH, after all. But sometimes in a D&D adventure there is simply no way around needing a dispel magic.

 

[A'koss]

If you're playing a game that's a radical departure from D&D, which IH is, it's pretty impractical to expect a D&D adventure to play without a hitch straight out of the box. D&D has expectations that character will have certain resources, such as access to divination spellls, abjuration spells, transportation magic, and of course magic weapons and curative magic, that IH characters won't have in equal portions. That's the point of IH, after all. But sometimes in a D&D adventure there is simply no way around needing a dispel magic.

Indeed, but Mike has been upfront about IH being compatable with the MMs, but not necessarily every adventure - and it would be for reasons like these. What are you going to do if the adventure takes place on the Elemental Planes of Fire or Water? Suddenly you don't have a 6 second solution to the problem and things get a little more interesting.

Also, great to hear that IH is at the printers - woot! I am kinda sad that Mike won't be there to nuture this baby along but at least the groundwork is all there for others to build on.

Cheers!

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Next update is out. Link: http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL_excerpt4

It's all about feat mastery, displaying the Weapon Finesse and Power Attack feat mastery chains.

I have to say that in many ways these are much much cooler than the classes themselves.

Indeed, Weapon Finesse could easilly be the feature of a class rather than a feat tree, which is good since to get all ten feats you'd pretty much be considering it that.

They certainly make high level play look insanely deadly. High levels of power attack force massive damage saves on every hit, and WF, applied to a Rogue anyways, would double your sneak attack damage and, seemingly, force sneak attacks on at least one blow a round regardless of circumstances.

Power Attack has the interesting side feature of making what had been a sort of simple feat really very strategic and deep. If this is what IH means by making fighters as interesting tactically as wizards then I have all the faith in the world that they will succeed on that point.

 

[JohnSnow]

Indeed, Weapon Finesse could easilly be the feature of a class rather than a feat tree, which is good since to get all ten feats you'd pretty much be considering it that.

They certainly make high level play look insanely deadly. High levels of power attack force massive damage saves on every hit, and WF, applied to a Rogue anyways, would double your sneak attack damage and, seemingly, force sneak attacks on at least one blow a round regardless of circumstances.

While I completely and utterly agree with you on this, I think we're missing something somewhat significant. Addressing your first point, I think it's absolutely critical to point out this quote:

Characters may choose to advance by taking most or all of one feat's abilities or take a larger number of base feats with fewer advanced mastery abilities.

Which means that you don't have to take all the feats in a chain. That changes things somewhat significantly. It's worth mentioning that taking all those feats would eat up all of any character's feats.

I would also surmise that the highest version of Finesse Mastery is going to go to the Harrier, rather than the Thief or Executioner classes. I could, of course, be wrong. I agree with you about high level combat looking quite deadly.

So it looks like characters get 2 feats at first level plus 1 every even level. And with these chains...excellent!!

Guess this puts the rest to the "Is Power Attack Mastery 2" just "Cleave" renamed?

Obviously, it's not.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I was well aware that you don't have to take all of the feats, but it's true that I hadn't properly wrapped my head around the fact that you don't even have to take them in a chain.

Harrier as finesse ten monkey? interesting...

But at least one of the big backstab classes, thief or executioner, is going to have finesse at 9 and that means loads of extra back stab.

Man, I was rooting for the executioner for next class preview, but with finesse and the lack of tokens I'm switching my vote to harrier.

 

[JohnSnow]

But at least one of the big backstab classes, thief or executioner, is going to have finesse at 9 and that means loads of extra back stab.

Probably true. After all, the archer gets Finesse Mastery 8. And my immediate reaction was the same as I imagine yours was. In other words: "WTF?!!? An extra 4d6 of damage that is uable ALL the time and stacks with sneak attack?!?"

But then I realized. This is a 17th level character with no flaming weapon, no frost weapon, no shocking burst weapon. Hell, he probably doesn't even have a KEEN short sword!! So he's not really doing much more damage than a D&D 3e rogue with a holy (+2d6) shock (+1d6) flaming (+1d6) rapier. He just doesn't NEED the sword to do it! Moreover, as it's sneak attack damage, it probably won't affect things immune to critical hits, unlike the sword. So, even though it's usable against things that are immune to fire or electricity, and aren't evil, it's not really that big a deal.

To some degree, I think we've become so conditioned to thinking of the character's "power" as not including his items that the IH paradigm (Heroic without items) is going to take some getting used to. But I think I LIKE it!