Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[AdmundfortGeographer]

If you do find any of my words nearly representing what you mean to say, please simply provide your own phrasing in its entirety unless you mean to snark or hurrah. It's very hard for me to interpret otherwise.

The number of times I have seen someone replying to something with adding a single word upon something already said is beyond count. Rarely, if ever, have I seen it intended as a snark or churlishness. Maybe instead begging for the entirety of his thinking you just give a bit more leeway in the possibility you are misinterpreting and halt the accusation flinging of not-obvious intent? *shrug*

Being on the Internet as long as you imply you must be more than familiar with the difficulty in interpreting purely on text...

In fact, as I read Wulf's one-word italic addition to be nearly total agreement... but for the one word he added. Churlish?

 

[Mark]

I'd argue that what you're more likely to see is that one man's specific style probably encompasses bits of pieces of any number of someone else's discrete styles.

I don't think there is any product that couldn't be described as a mix of a number of styles.

 

[Azgulor]

It's entirely possible it's just me, but when I read your posts that perhaps were trying to express disappointment they came across as slightly adversarial, but mostly defensive about something. What that would be, I don't know. I could guess, but then I'd really be in deeper water than I feel comfortable, not knowing you personally.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get start any kind of fight here, but if I saw a tone in the comments that you didn't intend, chances are I'm not the only one who saw it. Just something to think about.

Um, Mac Callum, I truly am not trying to be argumentative, but I think actually think it IS you.

I've read nothing in Wulf's posts to suggest a negative opinion of the book. I do read them as someone interested in how the product would approach a genre of fantasy that Wulf likes: high adventure, low magic. As more info about IL has come out, it doesn't appear that IL will be tackling that genre. Rather, per Mearls' designer diaries and the initial IL announcements on the Malhavoc website, IL characters will be able to stand on equal footing with their D&D counterparts. That's definitely High Fantasy, High Magic.

Although I failed to do it in my post, Wulf was kind enough to drive the distinction home in a response to my post: D&D supports High Magic and character ability primarily through the acquistion of ever-increasingly-powerful magic items. Iron Lore presumably (again, based on Mr. Mearls tidbits) will support the same power curve without magic items and through character abilities/feats/talents/etc.

(And I'm still trying to figure out how Wulf's clarification and support of my point equates to a churlish response as suggested by Dr. Strangemonkey...)

Azgulor

 

[JoeGKushner]

I would think it less a nod to Exalted and more the expected outcome when trying to create classes that fit into the default D&D CR system wihtout relying on magic items. You can even see this in the 1e barbarian class. PCs get past 10th level and, magic or no, they're going to be capable of some hairy @#$!.

Exalted seems to me a whole 'nother animal.

But at 20th level, those 'replacments' for magic items and other standards, is going to continue to rise no? Replacements to overcome damage reduction and other core elements, such as teleportation, dimension door, bulls strength and other buff spells, will have to be built into it, or it won't be compatible with either Arcana Evolved or D&D as both have lots of magic built into 'em, even if you just use the spellcasters and toss the magic items.

 

[Felon]

I have read this thread "cover to cover", and agree that your recap "recaps" most of your posts; just not all of your comments.....It's entirely possible it's just me, but when I read your posts that perhaps were trying to express disappointment they came across as slightly adversarial, but mostly defensive about something.

My take on it is that Wulf often just doesn't sugar-coat his remarks with niceties. You can see that in one his replies to me earlier in this thread.

Having said that, I'd love it if some moderator would come in and tell us to stop talking about Wulf and get us talking about IL again.

How do you figure? The ladder of arrows is the only ability so far that look even vaugely anime-ish and that, as been pointed out, has been done in Conan too.

The heroes in Leiber and Howard's stories were not superheroes. They relied heavily on stealth and picking foes off quickly one at a time. This is because plowing into multiple opponents was a good way to get killed, particularly if they were armed with weapons that can strike at a distance. And on the occassions where they encountered monsters, they were fighting an uphill battle. Pitted against other men they were hell-on-wheels, but going toe-to-toe against something bigger, stronger, and more savage than themselves was a very bleak option.

Then again, maybe Howard and Leiber's heroes were just very low level.

 

[Andor]

The heroes in Leiber and Howard's stories were not superheroes. They relied heavily on stealth and picking foes off quickly one at a time. This is because plowing into multiple opponents was a good way to get killed, particularly if they were armed with weapons that can strike at a distance. And on the occassions where they encountered monsters, they were fighting an uphill battle. Pitted against other men they were hell-on-wheels, but going toe-to-toe against something bigger, stronger, and more savage than themselves was a very bleak option.

Then again, maybe Howard and Leiber's heroes were just very low level.

Well, it's been explicitly stated that the goal of Iron Lore is to allow you fight with the same puissance as the equivilent party in 3.5. That having been said if you want your PCs scared of monsters then give them a troll at 3rd level.

It seems to me that the problem several people are having with Iron Lore has less to do with the system than the fact that the exp chart continues past 7th level. Even Conan was not a 20th level character. Once you get past the low double digits you are into superhero territory. At 15th level you are a hollywood action hero. At 20th you are pretty much a greek god. This is simply a facet of the d20 system. The problem lies in the fact that the game has 20+ levels and expects you to be allowed to reach them. If you don't want characters who can become 20 times more powerful than they used to be, try another system. Or stop scaling experience rewards to grant another level every 4 sessions.

 

[buzz]

It seems to me that the problem several people are having with Iron Lore has less to do with the system than the fact that the exp chart continues past 7th level. Even Conan was not a 20th level character. Once you get past the low double digits you are into superhero territory. At 15th level you are a hollywood action hero. At 20th you are pretty much a greek god. This is simply a facet of the d20 system. The problem lies in the fact that the game has 20+ levels and expects you to be allowed to reach them. If you don't want characters who can become 20 times more powerful than they used to be, try another system. Or stop scaling experience rewards to grant another level every 4 sessions.

Exactly. Malhavoc has been up front that IL PCs will be able to compete with D&D PCs of similar level. Knowing what high-level D&D characters are capable of, no one should be expecting that IL will be "nasty, brutish, and short" (as it were) all the way to 20th.

But at 20th level, those 'replacments' for magic items and other standards, is going to continue to rise no? Replacements to overcome damage reduction and other core elements, such as teleportation, dimension door, bulls strength and other buff spells, will have to be built into it, or it won't be compatible with either Arcana Evolved or D&D as both have lots of magic built into 'em, even if you just use the spellcasters and toss the magic items.

Not arguing that, just arguing "nod to Exalted". Exalted PCs start where D&D PCs are just hitting the Epic Level Handbook. Not much that has been revealed about IL gives me the same feeling of over-the-top anime superheroics that Exalted emulates.

It does, however, seem like it'll do a fine for, say, Aragorn holding off an approaching army of orcs with nothing more than a bastard sword and a leather jerkin.

 

[Felon]

It seems to me that the problem several people are having with Iron Lore has less to do with the system than the fact that the exp chart continues past 7th level. Even Conan was not a 20th level character.

Sort of. The problem some people are having is that you can't have it both ways, saying that IL heroes can kill the same monsters that D&D characters can while simultaneoously making comparisons between IL and ficitional heroes that can't fight the same monsters that D&D characters can.

 

[Mac Callum]

The heroes in Leiber and Howard's stories were not superheroes. They relied heavily on stealth and picking foes off quickly one at a time. This is because plowing into multiple opponents was a good way to get killed, particularly if they were armed with weapons that can strike at a distance. And on the occassions where they encountered monsters, they were fighting an uphill battle. Pitted against other men they were hell-on-wheels, but going toe-to-toe against something bigger, stronger, and more savage than themselves was a very bleak option.

Then again, maybe Howard and Leiber's heroes were just very low level.

I imagine that this description could be perfectly adjudicated in IL. Plowing headlong into a crowd of Armigers / Beserkers backed up with Archers would be suicide if they were a high enough level. Taking on monters can be an uphill battle if they're a high enough CR.

In other words, "bigger, stronger, and more savage" are relative terms, which the Level / CR sytems handles pretty well.

 

[Mac Callum]

Sort of. The problem some people are having is that you can't have it both ways, saying that IL heroes can kill the same monsters that D&D characters can while simultaneoously making comparisons between IL and ficitional heroes that can't fight the same monsters that D&D characters can.

Huh? Conan can take out things no D&D or IL character of 1st level could kill, but he would be threatened by things a 20th level character would handle with ease.

The only thing that tells me is that a rules representation of Conan would be higher than 1st but lower than 20th level.

What I think is cool about IL is that you could make a rules rep of Conan without having to hand waive or ignore why he needs the Standard Wealth Table's worth of equipment.